News0 min ago
Were We Better Off Dumb?
37 Answers
I'm a believer in science and all that it has brought to mankind. Though, unlike my entire maternal family, I share no faith with them. Christianity (respectfully) in my humble opinion, is a theocracy set up to retain control of Europe by the dwindling Roman Empire, ensuring Rome as the powerhouse that focused the faiths of many nations under one banner, as it remains today. Because of it's dark history and fractured demographic (over 10,000 sects of Christianity today), I found no appeal to its teachings so I studied teachings of Science. It allows access to the Universe in all it's glory and fact becomes stranger than fiction!!
My point is, I find myself feeling hollow, unfulfilled by science's limit of knowledge. Profoundly deep questions still remain to addressed... "Is there a God?" "Where did our universe come from?" "Do we all possess a spirit?"
So I find myself thinking, would I have been better off indoctrinated to Christian (or even Pagan) beliefs in a time where Humans were "God's children" and the Earth was specially made for us, and the stars in the sky were angels and souls? My grandparents, aunty, uncle and cousins all believe this, and they seem so at peace and loved, it's enviable...
Anyone else share this feeling? Is ignorance bliss?
IHI
My point is, I find myself feeling hollow, unfulfilled by science's limit of knowledge. Profoundly deep questions still remain to addressed... "Is there a God?" "Where did our universe come from?" "Do we all possess a spirit?"
So I find myself thinking, would I have been better off indoctrinated to Christian (or even Pagan) beliefs in a time where Humans were "God's children" and the Earth was specially made for us, and the stars in the sky were angels and souls? My grandparents, aunty, uncle and cousins all believe this, and they seem so at peace and loved, it's enviable...
Anyone else share this feeling? Is ignorance bliss?
IHI
Answers
A lot depends on why you feel hollow. Science for all its glory is never going to be finished. Actually that's what makes it so good, but anyway. I get the feeling that you are seeking a sense of completion, finality. You aren't going to get that in science, almost by definition. "Teachings of Science", "I'm a great believer in Science" make me think that you are...
21:05 Mon 04th Mar 2013
IHI - if you think that religion and science are compatible no wonder you are confused. You are in that unfinished mental state that a child reaches when he begins to question Santa Claus - not yet quite able to give up his belief.
You need to move on. The truth as gradually revealed by science is a wonderful source of inspiration and mental fulfilment.
You need to move on. The truth as gradually revealed by science is a wonderful source of inspiration and mental fulfilment.
It is, as Old Geezer has already indicated, a complete myth that we only use 10% of our brains, let alone goodlife's claim of 0.0001%, but then goodlife is rarely troubled by factual accuracy.
Here's an article by a neuroscientist:
http://
Here's an article by a neuroscientist:
http://
IMO - should be presumed (or as in the case with certain contributors to these forums, ISOE'sO - some one else's, typically unattributed, opinion) where such opinions fail to specify their corollaries in reality, such as when inferring the existence of a god, especially one with the uniquely anthropomorphic qualities of intention, desire and purposeful creativity.
Spirituality arises as a conscious abstraction within a highly developed living functioning brain, with an implicit awareness of its interconnectedness to the world it lives in, a world we all share.
'GOD' (grand old delusion) is the lazy man's explanation, in denial of the explanation they lack. Not everyone can be bothered to create their own god. Some, if not most, simply adopt someone else's, ready made. But ultimately, the potential and ability for purposeful creativity of any kind is the end product of a highly evolved universe, not the beginning . . . IMO.
Spirituality arises as a conscious abstraction within a highly developed living functioning brain, with an implicit awareness of its interconnectedness to the world it lives in, a world we all share.
'GOD' (grand old delusion) is the lazy man's explanation, in denial of the explanation they lack. Not everyone can be bothered to create their own god. Some, if not most, simply adopt someone else's, ready made. But ultimately, the potential and ability for purposeful creativity of any kind is the end product of a highly evolved universe, not the beginning . . . IMO.
The ironic thing is that Barauch Spinoza was hounded, accused of being an atheist.
During the Enlightenment this sort of view, somewhat similar to the one you describe was quite common - it kind of got you out of having to be an atheist which was still dodgy legally and socially.
It was/is generally known as Deism http://
Although my challenge to deists is to distinguish between their 'God' and a super intelligent alien.
It still doesn't get you out of the who created the Universe/who created God roundabout
During the Enlightenment this sort of view, somewhat similar to the one you describe was quite common - it kind of got you out of having to be an atheist which was still dodgy legally and socially.
It was/is generally known as Deism http://
Although my challenge to deists is to distinguish between their 'God' and a super intelligent alien.
It still doesn't get you out of the who created the Universe/who created God roundabout
To say that, "Ignorance is bliss", is merely an affirmation of ones own profound ignorance. Respect for the efficacy of ones own mind begins but does not end with an acknowledgement of ones own ignorance. If you believe "ignorance is bliss" you are simply acknowledging your ignorance of what 'bliss' is.
I do sort of get that "god-shaped hole" you are describing,. but I wonder if it's actually related to feeling uncomfortable about what this means for your family. Implicitly, you have to think that they are wrong to have their faith and for me I've always found that very awkward to deal with, especially when it can lead to open clashes of opinion on one subject or another.
Teddio, I think you're right. Indoctrination from a young age - and that's what religious instruction is - does result in a nagging echo that is difficult to dispel.
Jim, maybe you've been indoctrinated more than you realise and that's why you have difficulty dealing with your relatives' faith - and why you 'get' that god shaped hole.
Jim, maybe you've been indoctrinated more than you realise and that's why you have difficulty dealing with your relatives' faith - and why you 'get' that god shaped hole.
I don't really have difficulty dealing with their faith per se, it's more complicated than that. Recently I had an argument with someone I've known a long time, which I was expecting to be about my interpretation of Christianity but rapidly turned into a debate about how old the Earth is! So my problem wasn't with her faith, but with her rejection of irrefutable Scientific evidence because of it.
My mother is a Christian and frankly she'd have been neglecting her role as a mother if she hadn't exposed me to the faith, but it was never indoctrination and while I feel sad to have to disagree with her on something so important to her life I don't think it affects our relationship.
One of my best friends is Christian, I talked about how I gave up on the faith in a discussion that was entirely friendly and we remain best of friends!
To be sure, being exposed to something that you then reject is going to leave you feeling perhaps empty, especially when it involves going against loved ones. But it was never indoctrination, and I was allowed to make my own choice. Methinks that the first person I was talking to doth protest too much though and seriously needs to understand what Science is better than she does at the moment.
My mother is a Christian and frankly she'd have been neglecting her role as a mother if she hadn't exposed me to the faith, but it was never indoctrination and while I feel sad to have to disagree with her on something so important to her life I don't think it affects our relationship.
One of my best friends is Christian, I talked about how I gave up on the faith in a discussion that was entirely friendly and we remain best of friends!
To be sure, being exposed to something that you then reject is going to leave you feeling perhaps empty, especially when it involves going against loved ones. But it was never indoctrination, and I was allowed to make my own choice. Methinks that the first person I was talking to doth protest too much though and seriously needs to understand what Science is better than she does at the moment.
whilst i dont agree that ignorance is bliss - i do know what you mean.
you mean that our ability to think, reason and dream etc etc not only brings us happiness, it can also bring us profound sadness ...
the knowledge and understanding of all the crap in the world, all the troubles, the fact that we are not special, we are just animals like all others, the ability to analyse behaviors, that we just want there to be more to life, and the futile search and realisation that this is it, etc ....
and i can see how some people, when they are in the pits of despair, or depression etc, may wish they did not have the mental capacity to realise the truth, to understand the pain, or to truly think things through properly.
but that is only when they are in deep misery - under normal circumstances, ignorance is not bliss.
i suppose thats why people drink or take drugs 'to forget' after some trauma... they are essentially trying to obliterate knowledge, information, memories... the want to ''de-learn'' something or some time, to 'rewind' their mind to a time when they knew a bit less ... some go so far as to want to forget or 'rewind' their whole life - ie, by killing themselves...
you mean that our ability to think, reason and dream etc etc not only brings us happiness, it can also bring us profound sadness ...
the knowledge and understanding of all the crap in the world, all the troubles, the fact that we are not special, we are just animals like all others, the ability to analyse behaviors, that we just want there to be more to life, and the futile search and realisation that this is it, etc ....
and i can see how some people, when they are in the pits of despair, or depression etc, may wish they did not have the mental capacity to realise the truth, to understand the pain, or to truly think things through properly.
but that is only when they are in deep misery - under normal circumstances, ignorance is not bliss.
i suppose thats why people drink or take drugs 'to forget' after some trauma... they are essentially trying to obliterate knowledge, information, memories... the want to ''de-learn'' something or some time, to 'rewind' their mind to a time when they knew a bit less ... some go so far as to want to forget or 'rewind' their whole life - ie, by killing themselves...
Sorry to post so late, it probably won't even be read but I thought I should repsond to the well presented posts here. It humbles to learn others are ina similar positions and some ideas why that might be. My reactions are;
@mibn2cweus: "...you are simply acknowledging your ignorance of what 'bliss' is..." - Surely, isn't the concept of bliss the contrasting opposite of one's own interpretation of torture?
joko: "... i can see how some people ... may wish they did not have the mental capacity to realise the truth, to understand the pain, or to truly think things through properly." - What you don't know can't hurt you :)
- Though I did like your post "...the potential and ability for purposeful creativity of any kind is the end product of a highly evolved universe..." I suspect we may be the infant of another universe born via a black hole in the parent universe. This suggests an ancestral lineage that could stretch back incredibly far, but not infinitely ;) and have evolved through it's own environment in hyperspace. However;
jake-the-peg: "...Although my challenge to deists is to distinguish between their 'God' and a super intelligent alien..." - I too favour a SIA as the God figure. (I'm partial to the 'experiement universe' or '[computer] simulation' universe ideas) - This God thing, it's a bit harder to tie down than one might think.
jim360: "... Implicitly, you have to think that they are wrong...can lead to open clashes of opinion..." - This happens frequently with my family, although most of it goes unsaid. One just alterers the content of words in a sentence or swaps one phrase for another as not to offend. Really annoys me. They are intelligence people, collectively a chemist, a physiotherapist, a nurse, a marine biologist and a teacher. My cousins husbands, who all share their intensity of the Christian faith, one a teacher, another a police officer in the Met and the third an accountant to a bank in Malaysia.
Oh, and regarding the memory use in our brains adding up to .001% of available memory, well I think that we need to appreciate how complex it is to 'run' a brain, all it's different parts process certain information but it feeds it to where? The answer; 'The Minds Eye' - The programme that assembles all analysed collected information, into a comprehensible situation and then acts on that according to its 'scenario memory files' because of previous outcomes and consequences. What is using the space up is lattice neural network that acts like a computers 'virtual memory', supporting the program running...
IHI
@mibn2cweus: "...you are simply acknowledging your ignorance of what 'bliss' is..." - Surely, isn't the concept of bliss the contrasting opposite of one's own interpretation of torture?
joko: "... i can see how some people ... may wish they did not have the mental capacity to realise the truth, to understand the pain, or to truly think things through properly." - What you don't know can't hurt you :)
- Though I did like your post "...the potential and ability for purposeful creativity of any kind is the end product of a highly evolved universe..." I suspect we may be the infant of another universe born via a black hole in the parent universe. This suggests an ancestral lineage that could stretch back incredibly far, but not infinitely ;) and have evolved through it's own environment in hyperspace. However;
jake-the-peg: "...Although my challenge to deists is to distinguish between their 'God' and a super intelligent alien..." - I too favour a SIA as the God figure. (I'm partial to the 'experiement universe' or '[computer] simulation' universe ideas) - This God thing, it's a bit harder to tie down than one might think.
jim360: "... Implicitly, you have to think that they are wrong...can lead to open clashes of opinion..." - This happens frequently with my family, although most of it goes unsaid. One just alterers the content of words in a sentence or swaps one phrase for another as not to offend. Really annoys me. They are intelligence people, collectively a chemist, a physiotherapist, a nurse, a marine biologist and a teacher. My cousins husbands, who all share their intensity of the Christian faith, one a teacher, another a police officer in the Met and the third an accountant to a bank in Malaysia.
Oh, and regarding the memory use in our brains adding up to .001% of available memory, well I think that we need to appreciate how complex it is to 'run' a brain, all it's different parts process certain information but it feeds it to where? The answer; 'The Minds Eye' - The programme that assembles all analysed collected information, into a comprehensible situation and then acts on that according to its 'scenario memory files' because of previous outcomes and consequences. What is using the space up is lattice neural network that acts like a computers 'virtual memory', supporting the program running...
IHI
I_Hate_Infinity
Question Author
//@mibn2cweus: "...you are simply acknowledging your ignorance of what 'bliss' is..." - Surely, isn't the concept of bliss the contrasting opposite of one's own interpretation of torture?//
23:00 Mon 11th Mar 2013
Bliss is not a term I typically resort to as I find it's meaning rather vague. Ignorance, on the other hand, has a much clearer meaning to me, that being 'a lack of knowledge'. Knowledge is not necessarily always a welcome commodity, but it is essential to determining that which is preferable to the arbitrary and the given. Knowledge provides of with the facts that enable us to arrive at an understanding of what is of value to us as well as the means to achieve it. In that context, 'bliss' acquires meaning in proportion to ones understanding of what it entails and ones ability to realise it, which consequently is what makes it worth having in the first place.
Until you know how it is, you will never be able to fully appreciate what it is.
Question Author
//@mibn2cweus: "...you are simply acknowledging your ignorance of what 'bliss' is..." - Surely, isn't the concept of bliss the contrasting opposite of one's own interpretation of torture?//
23:00 Mon 11th Mar 2013
Bliss is not a term I typically resort to as I find it's meaning rather vague. Ignorance, on the other hand, has a much clearer meaning to me, that being 'a lack of knowledge'. Knowledge is not necessarily always a welcome commodity, but it is essential to determining that which is preferable to the arbitrary and the given. Knowledge provides of with the facts that enable us to arrive at an understanding of what is of value to us as well as the means to achieve it. In that context, 'bliss' acquires meaning in proportion to ones understanding of what it entails and ones ability to realise it, which consequently is what makes it worth having in the first place.
Until you know how it is, you will never be able to fully appreciate what it is.
@mibn2cweus - "Until you know how it is, you will never be able to fully appreciate what it is."
Can't the reverse be just as true? 'Until you know how it's not, you will never fully be able to appreciate what it is.' ~ i.e. One can never truly conceptualise one's own opinion of bliss, until one traverses the path of unbridled, damaging life experience.
E.g. To appreciate our life and freedoms and commodities and all rounded relatively health nation that we live in, one must experience the hardships of life, either at home or abroad (in third world countries.)
One man's bliss is another man's status quo, whilst the status quo of the first is a miserable existence to latter.
"Bliss is not a term I typically resort to as I find it's meaning rather vague..." - I implore you to attach your own meaning to bliss but also accept that bliss is relative to each and every soul on Earth. Any number of enviromental and psychological factors play their part to elicit an individual's concept of bliss.
Is it not the case that each has their own version of Heaven they might go too? Is this not evidence that each has their own meaning for bliss?
Think about this, and get back to me :)
IHI
Can't the reverse be just as true? 'Until you know how it's not, you will never fully be able to appreciate what it is.' ~ i.e. One can never truly conceptualise one's own opinion of bliss, until one traverses the path of unbridled, damaging life experience.
E.g. To appreciate our life and freedoms and commodities and all rounded relatively health nation that we live in, one must experience the hardships of life, either at home or abroad (in third world countries.)
One man's bliss is another man's status quo, whilst the status quo of the first is a miserable existence to latter.
"Bliss is not a term I typically resort to as I find it's meaning rather vague..." - I implore you to attach your own meaning to bliss but also accept that bliss is relative to each and every soul on Earth. Any number of enviromental and psychological factors play their part to elicit an individual's concept of bliss.
Is it not the case that each has their own version of Heaven they might go too? Is this not evidence that each has their own meaning for bliss?
Think about this, and get back to me :)
IHI
