On Being Raised With Religion.

[chrisgel]

I've just read this article and although it's not a new idea it seems to have pressed the Mails "Outrage" button.

I was raised as a catholic and can remember, even at primary school, doubting what I was told.
Anyone have views on this?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2312813/Richard-Dawkins-Forcing-religion-children-child-abuse-claims-atheist-professor.html

[naomi24]

OG, //And I have to say it surprises me that someone who appeared on the forum to believe there was more than just a physical reality to existence should defend someone who basically makes out you are foolish to do so.//

I have never defended the ‘supernatural’, which is what you and Richard Dawkins are talking about. Far from it. If anything exists in this world that cannot currently be explained, that’s as far as it goes. It cannot currently be explained – and I don’t think any scientist would disagree with that.

Jim, I'm not sure Galileo - or Darwin - would have said religion enriched science.

[chrisgel]

I suppose the question there Jim is did religion drive them to the discoveries or was it irrelevant. The catholic church certainly did it's utmost to stifle and repress discoveries that contradicted their dogma.

[jim360]

Actually Darwin was religious (not as much as that many, though) -- which is part of the reason it took him 20 years to publish his ideas.

Galileo, meanwhile, was challenging the established authority but got into trouble more for being rude about the Church than for publishing Scientific ideas. Calling the established authority "simple" doesn't go down well, whether you are right or not.

Like any organisation that has been around for ages, the Church became corrupted and is guilty of many sins, past and present. In the past the Crusades spring to mind, in the present child abuse among others. But equally religion has been a force for good. Many charities were established by the religious (Christian Aid, Water for Life, Barnardo's, etc.).

It's too complicated to say that the Church is wholly good, or wholly evil. FOr better and for worse it has influenced many things. Our Science, our Culture, our Calendar, our laws. Gradually, and rightly in the case of the law in particular, religion is being squeezed out of modern life. To pretend that it hasn't had benefits is to misread history. To pretend, equally, that the thing to do to solve the World's problems is to remove religion is pretty similar. Most of the major religious conflicts are often superposed on deeper poltiical problems -- in Ireland the Catholics v. Protestants problem arrived some 400 years after trouble first broke out; in the Crusades the first victims of the Christian soldiers were other Christians in Eastern Europe; and before many major religions were even thought of it's still possible to find examples of massacres motivated by want of land, money and power.

The biggest evil the world faces is never going to be religion, but Tribalism. Religion is just one manifestation of this scourge, this mentality of "them and us" that is ultimately the main cause of evil in the world. To blame religions is to miss this point.

[jomifl]

We are drifting off track a bit here, we are not debating the merits of religion but the merits of indoctrinating children and thus denying them free choice when they are old enough to make their own decisions. You only have to look at the people of North Korea to see what lack of free thought does, most of the population are paranoid.

[goodlife]

Finally, we come to this fundamental question: Does the rejection of the Genesis account satisfy the human need for meaning and purpose in life? In the view of Richard Dawkins, a leading evolutionist and atheist, the universe has “no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.” What an utterly bleak outlook, totally contrary to human nature!

[jomifl]

Well goodlife that explains everything does it? Things that are contrary to human nature can't exist? Go outside and open your eyes. Are earthquakes contrary to human nature? You do talk nonsense.

[mikey4444]

Oh dear ! I thought that this thread might be a place where we could all reminisce about our childhoods but its turned into the usual "atheists against credulous believers" argument.

Come on...lighten up everybody ! Its not the end of the world you know.

Or is it ?

[chrisgel]

Goodlife //What an utterly bleak outlook, totally contrary to human nature!//
Possibly, but no use burying your head in the sand. Or believing in myths and fairy tales.
Man up, grow up and try to make the most of what time we have. Why should the universe have design, purpose, evil or good.
If it frightens you that much that you have to have an imaginary friend to hold your hand then do so. But please don't be telling my children or grandchildren about your him. They have real friends.

[chrisgel]

Sorry Mikey4444. Your post wasn't there when I posted that.
I too had hoped that others would have chipped in about their childhood experiences of school and religion but I suppose it's inevitable with this subject that it will wander from pillar to post.

[LazyGun]

If goodlife had his way, it would be mikey :)

Personally, I think the world will be a better place without religion, and we should do what we can to reduce its influence , in law, in education, in health, in equality, but you cannot force the issue. It will, I hope, gradually necrose, and become increasingly irrelevant.In short, i think the negatives far outweigh any positive benefits that people ascribe to religion..

As for Dawkins comment- He was reflecting on the nature of the Universe itself, not life on earth or more specifically human life. Goodlifes vision is a redundant one, with no credible basis for belief - just myths and legend.

[jim360]

There was an interesting BBC drama a few years back, "The Second Coming", where Christopher Ecclestone played Jesus and the "Next Covenant" turned out to be [spoiler] his death and the death of religion. I suppose simply because it's wrong any and all religious view(s) should be phased out, but as I've said earlier Religion is merely a facet of tribalism that is the "ultimate evil" in my view.

Ironically I watched that drama in my Religious Studies class at my CofE High school.

[jim360]

Whoops, ITV not BBC. My mistake!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Second_Coming_(TV_serial)

[ll_billym]

I had a science teacher when I was aged 11 who told me - and the rest of the class - that religion was made up by people to to explain things that they didn't know the answer to and were scared to admit it. A top bloke, prone to fits of extreme mirth followed by fits of rage and he ended up running off with a French French teacher.

[chrisgel]

ll_billym - That's spooky. I had a maths teacher that ran off with an exchange French teacher.

[ll_billym]

These French, coming over here, stealing our teachers...!

[mikey4444]

I can honestly say that I thoroughly enjoyed my upbringing as a Catholic and I hope that my previous posts on this thread helped to lighten the tone somewhat.

The staff at my school were nice and strict at the same time, an ideal combination for any boys education I would have thought. The local Parish Priests were kind and considerate and it angers me that somebody might think that a Catholic childhood was a constant fleeing from paedophile monsters

I know that nobody has suggested that here on AB but the media is full of such talk and its not typical, at least as far as my experience went. I can remember spraining my ankle on a "Catholic Boys Outing", on Exmoor in the 60's and the young Curate carrying me almost 2 miles back to the minibus beneath Dunkery Beacon. And he came to see me at home the following day.

Of course I have every sympathy with anybody who was interfered with, and I hope that the worst of that is over.

You see, there wasn't much else other than an religious upbringing back then. Even normal "council" schools had prayers at assembly, and RE classes. I was brought up with all the pomp that Catholicism could summon up and I still turned out as a militant atheist, which is what I am now.

Now I am going to bed !

[andy-hughes]

Naomi - " but that just doesn’t gel with atheism. It’s enough to get any atheist worth his salt reaching for the sick bucket."

Any atheist 'worth his salt'? I don't think I have to be 'worthy' of anything, certainly not measuring up to anyone else's idea of what an atheist is - I simply don't care enough to be bothered what other people think, I honestly don't.

If my actions offend some sort of 'atheist code', I am not remotely bothered in the slightest, because I am not in the business of justifying my lack of faith to atheists any more than I am to Christians.

It is simply not something I give thought to. I feel that the priest wishes me well when he blesses me - I'll take that, no problem.

We believe differently, the priest and I, but I like him, and he likes me, and I don't think I am some sort of betrayal mission accepting his good wishes. If he shook hands and said 'God bless you ...' it would mean the same thing, so don't get hung up about the fact that it is part of the communion rite - he doesn't, and neither do I.

[jomifl]

Goodlife, read this very carefully, it is important,at least as far as you are concerned. You posted the following;
/“no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.” What an utterly bleak outlook, totally contrary to human nature!/
What you or anyone else would like to be the truth does not have any influence on the truth. The truth is indifferent to peoples wishes. The sooner you understand that, then the sooner you will be able to come to terms with reality, give up you pointless struggle for an imaginary god and devote your energies to something more worthwhile and rewarding. You could actually help people that you perceive as less fortunate than yourself in a useful way as does the salvation army. Just putting a stop to your eternal sanctimonious blathering would be start.