The Religion Of Peace They Say!

[RATTER15]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2077658/The-Arabic-textbooks-children-chop-hands-feet-Sharia-law.html#ixzz2UW7d9oay

[jim360]

Ever is a long time, but you may have a point -- which is what scares me. Even the Scientific progress was, as I understand it, essentially demanded by the Koran, so perhaps it has always dominated things in the Islamic world more than I realised.

The two strands of Western and Arab-Islamic History are interesting and need studying, and I hope that at some point I might actually study them. As you might expect, I've been more interested in the History of Science where we owe Muslims a huge amount. Something has changed, anyway, because we don't even get much of that from modern Islam-dominated cultures anymore.

[naomi24]

//Even the Scientific progress was, as I understand it, essentially demanded by the Koran,//

I don't understand what you mean? What scientific progress was demanded by the Koran? According to devout Muslims, the Koran contains knowledge of everything that has been discovered - and of everything that is yet to be discovered - although I'm not entirely sure how that last one works!

[naomi24]

Jim, //we don't even get much of that from modern Islam-dominated cultures anymore.//

Why would you expect to? If it’s not in the Koran, or can’t be shown in some wonky manner to have been mentioned in the Koran, Muslim scientists would, for obvious reasons, be very reluctant to broadcast any findings that might be deemed ‘controversial’.

[jim360]

Is there not some instruction to investigate the world, to know it, because Allah put it there for Humans to enjoy and to exploit? Then Science was driven by a desire to know the world better in order to be able to exploit it better. I can't provide a reference for this, it's my hopefully correct interpretation of a History of Maths lecturer's point made in private lectures (and even if I could share them the notes aren't opening for me at the moment).

[jim360]

And I wouldn't necessarily "expect" to see Islam Scientists, but there were quite a few of them before so it's a surprise to see that change. Possibly, again, as they delved deeper they found that Science was incompatible with the Koran as you say and stopped doing it, but this is a long time period.

I was about to cite Jim Al-Khalili as an example of a Muslim scientist but, surprise surprise, he's actually an atheist. Go figure.

[Khandro]

Somehow the belief that all a good Muslim needs to be 'educated', is to Know the Koran, preferably to be able to recite it in full, has become entrenched in many sections of Islam. If this had always been so, then there would not be any of the achievements that have indubitably taken place within the past Islamic world. Unfortunately young people are being radicalised by misinterpretations of the Koran by extremely poor level leadership in the form of many Imams.
The only answer I can see must come from a true, wider, education, but instead of building proper universities and investing in the future, the wealth derived from oil revenues in the middle east is squandered. The sole exports of Iran for example, apart from its oil reserves are just as they were a century or more ago, carpets and pistachio nuts.

[naomi24]

Jim, yes, indeed, the Koran does encourage learning – but woe betide any faithful Muslim that believes something that cannot be justified by the Koran or by the proclamations of Mohammed. The faithful simply wouldn’t believe it – full stop! You are making the same mistake than many westerners make in endowing the faithful of Islam with a similar mindset to yourself. Islam is not simply a religion – it is much more than that - and that mindset does not exist within Islam.

As for Jim Al-Khalili – I don’t need to go figure, but you might.

[naomi24]

Khandro, //young people are being radicalised by misinterpretations of the Koran//

That's a popular misconception promulgated by religious apologists. The Koran justifies what they do - there is no two ways about it.

[jim360]

//I don’t need to go figure, but you might.//

Well isn't that just a bit patronising? I was being sarcastic and yes, it was already directed at myself. No need for you to rub it in.

I need to go do more research on this. The thing that is nagging at me still, though, is what the answer you're giving means.

[jim360]

Can I also just add -- why is it a good thing to spread the message that actually the extremist Muslims are, in some sense, right? Right at least in their interpretation of the Koran, apparently. Let's suppose this is true, and meanwhile we are also trying to encourage Muslims to tackle the extremists. Well, great, because within their faith actually the side of reason and peace is "wrong" -- so to say all of this may well undermine their efforts, and certainly won't help them.

If what you say about the Koran is true, it's unhelpful and risks strengthening the hand of exremism, and if it's a false accusation it's divisive and gives extremists more fuel. Either way it's hardly a constructive message to spread.

[naomi24]

Jim, It wasn't intended to be patronising - simply that you might want to think very seriously about why that scientist is an atheist rather than a faithful Muslim.

The answer I'm giving means that the faithful of Islam do not possess a similar mindset to your own. For them rationality is found only within their literature - the literature that their teachers depend upon - and if it isn't there, then it isn't rational - and therefore, it simply isn't true.

[naomi24]

Jim, //Either way it's hardly a constructive message to spread. //

This is the mindset of radical Islam, and it's something that, if we have any sense at all, we will acknowledge - and for the security of this country and the western world, the sooner the better. However, if you want to shove the truth under the carpet in favour of lies, there's a simple solution. Don't ask me questions.

[Khandro]

naomi; //The Koran justifies what they do - there is no two ways about it.//
Please explain how the Koran justifies 9/11 and Woolwich.

[jomifl]

Khadro, The Koran allows muslims to kill infidels, enslave their female family member and take their goods. I think that covers it.

[naomi24]

Khandro, I would say it’s a pleasure, but it really isn't.

//"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"// Quran (5:33)

//"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"// Quran (8:12)

//"Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"// Quran (61:4)

There’s plenty more, but I’m going to bed. Night all.

[Khandro]

birdie; no offence taken at all, I asked the question for information not provocation. I have not read the Koran and have no immediate desire to do so as it might entail learning Arabic to avoid the uncertainty of translation. The passages quoted by naomi sound chilling, I wonder if they are all quite so explicit in the original.
Also I cannot see how the invasion of Iraq could have been construed as 'Waging war against Allah', and 2% of the victims of 9/11 were in fact Muslims anyway. There seems to be a lot of inconsistency in Koranic interpretation and as I've said above, I think it is up to the better educated imams to tackle this issue, but will or can they?

[naomi24]

Khandro, . //I cannot see how the invasion of Iraq could have been construed as 'Waging war against Allah',

You can’t see it because you are attempting to employ western rationality to comprehend the workings of minds that have been subjected to medieval brainwashing – and it can’t be done. Your mind simply doesn’t work in the same way as that of a radical Muslim. You have to understand that you’re dealing with a completely different intellect – not least, one that sees any perceived attack on the people or the countries of Islam as an attack on Allah – and in these instances radical Muslims – regardless of nationality – are one. To these people, all but the truly faithful are their enemies.

//and 2% of the victims of 9/11 were in fact Muslims anyway.//

Apart from the fact that to the Muslim extremist, life is easily expendable, they consider those Muslims who live a western lifestyle and mix with non-Muslims to be wrong, and to justify that they will tell you that the Koran commands Muslims not to befriend non-Muslims – and it does.

//"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."// Qur'an (5:51)

//"You will see many of them (Muslims) befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide."// Qur'an (5:80)

This one is particularly charming…. nothing like breeding suspicion …..

//"O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people, they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand."// Qur'an (3:118)

There are more verses, and the instruction is supported by the hadith – the proclamations of Mohammed. Here’s one of those.

"Do not keep company with anyone but a believer and do not let anyone eat your food but one who is pious." Abu Dawud (41:4832)

See the word ‘pious’ there?

[Khandro]

pretty damning stuff naomi; I shall take the liberty of printing it out and show it to my devout Muslim golf-friend Mohammad, when he returns from his business trip to China, - its amazing what conversations take place on the golf course.
I have heard though that somewhere it says something along the lines of; if you find yourself among non-believers, then remove yourself. Which is more practical than beheading them I think.

[naomi24]

Khandro, I would have thought your devout friend Mohammed knows the Koran and is aware of all this - but it will be interesting to hear his take on it - if he'll tell you. Do let us know.