Water Divining

[naomi24]

I’ve just been listening to ‘The Bottom Line’ on Radio 4 where the guests were the vice president of CH2M Hill, the CEO of Veolia Water, and the CEO of Anglian Water, who all said that water diviners are used within their respective industries. One said if he hadn’t seen it with his own eyes, he would never have believed it works. Listen to the last few minutes of the programme from about 27.14.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b036w3b6

Your thoughts?

[jim360]

no matter?? Weirdest typo ever -- "Water divining works no better ...than chance, or scientific techniques)", I meant.

[pixie373]

As you said yourself, Naomi, i think you're just enjoying the debate. Which is fair enough. Jim gave the only answer necessary within the first few posts. I am quite surprised, as i thought you were scientifically minded (i realise you're highly intelligent, I'm not suggesting that).

[jim360]

Thanks pixie and ve for the backing. If only I had realised that 220 posts ago, and then kept my mouth shut.

[pixie373]

Lol. I don't think you can make it any clearer, Jim. People believe what they like.

[naomi24]

Jim, aren’t you somewhat missing the point? It works – not always – and not consistently – that has never been suggested - but it does, as the three leaders of industry and all the people here who’ve seen it claim, work. The point of my question was not to establish its success rates but rather to establish, despite my doubts, whether or not it actually works at all – and your link confirms that it does. Thank you. Having said that I’m sorry you haven’t enjoyed the discussion. I thought it was quite lively and interesting. Still, it’s something to remember for the future. Thanks for your input anyway.

Pixie, I am quite scientifically minded – which is why I have a penchant for asking questions I have no definitive answers to. ;o)

[gness]

Well, I have really enjoyed reading all this.....a debate not turning into a slanging match is to be enjoyed whichever *side* one takes.
I haven't joined in much because I don't have the knowledge of Naomi and Jim to debate as they do....and anyway it's clear what I know (not believe but know) from my experience so I couldn't really add much...well done both. x

[jim360]

Am I missing the point? It wouldn't be the first time, but I don't think so. At the very least, it must be a far looser definition of "work" that you are using. If by work you mean simply "people who dowse can find water" then yes, they can. But then, that was never really in doubt. On the other hand, if by work you mean "produce results that are better than would be expected through random chance", then no, dowsing does not work.

Put another way, as far as I see it, by your definition, if dowsing works then so too do the Native American rain dances. They danced, it rained sometimes -- not consistently, of course not, no-one is claiming that -- but therefore it works.

There is no difference. You are saying that dowsing works because the intended effect follows sometimes. I am saying that it does not work because, while the intended effect did follow, there is no evidence of any causal connection between the method and the results.

Earlier svejk claimed that he could achieve a phenomenal 100% success rate, so that it has been suggested that dowsing works consistently.

[jim360]

Thanks, by the way, gness. :) Hope you are enjoying the good weather, still -- or is it not holding round your way?

[gness]

Well it's not raining yet but really hot and humid....Enjoying? Yes I suppose I am...if only it was cooler..Started on a new bit of the garden which means lots of heavy lifting and digging and lugging soil improver....after more lawn lifting.
My plan to retire into a nice garden and relax just isn't inviting enough I've come to realise...muck and cement and I'm happy...x

[naomi24]

Jim, //if dowsing works then so too do the Native American rain dances.//

I don’t think that’s a fair comparison – but I’ll say no more. I’ve established what I wanted to establish – and you’ve indicated that you’re tired of the discussion, so let’s leave it at that.

Gness, thank you. That’s a very nice thing to say. x

[jim360]

Deal. I hope that one day I might win one of these debates, but at least it's been largely fair.

[Khandro]

As this is the 'well I never!' thread of the moment, might I include something at least I find astonishing? Last night I dreamt I was standing under a bridge and as a green a double-decker bus approached I realised it was too high to enter and I watched helpless as it's roof hit the bridge - no casualties though.
Just now I looked at the news on the online Telegraph, and to my shock yesterday a green bus in Stockport did exactly that, unfortunately several people in this case were injured. I have not looked at any news items anywhere for the last 24hours, and I have never to my memory had a similar dream. Strange!

[Svejk]

That must feel weird, khandro. Would all or a lot of the buses be green where you live? Never seen a green bus around here. Might seem trivial compared to the crash but if you don't see green buses, it would add to the mystery.
Probably a rational explanation. Like you caught a glimpse of the news report without it registering. It'll be interesting to see what others think.

[gness]

Strange feeling isn't it Khandro? Happened to me once with no way of explaining it....it wasn't a news item.
It followed, and was slightly connected to, a premonition that possibly saved my life but not the life of the young lad who laughed at me and wouldn't listen..x

[Khandro]

svejk; I actually live in Germany and there are no double-decker buses green or otherwise here. I hadn't seen or heard any tv or radio yesterday. It's probably an amazing coincidence, but it was a real shock to the system when I saw the photo just before I posted this morning.

[naomi24]

Khandro, I had a somewhat similar experience – although very different to yours. I awoke one morning thinking of my best friend from childhood whom I hadn’t seen for years. Thinking is an understatement – the impression of her filled my mind completely – so strong – and so I decided to look on Friends Reunited to see if she was registered – and lo and behold she was – so I emailed her a one line message. “Hello ‘name’, I woke up thinking of you this morning’. The same day an email from her arrived. She was absolutely delighted to hear from me, she told me about her life, and asked me to reciprocate, which I did. No response. I emailed again. No response. And again. Still no response. A year later I got an email from a member of her family saying they had found my emails and her one response on her computer – and informing me that shortly after our exchange she had died. Spooky? Yes. Coincidence? Probably – but who knows?

[Svejk]

Ah, I thought perhaps you'd walked past one of those boards outside the local newsagents or somesuch, obviously not.
First morning I caught the bus to work in Germany, some 40yrs ago, the driver stopped in the middle of nowhere and started shouting "Nicht rauchen" or "keine rauchen" or something. All eyes on the bus turned towards the back of the bus, where of course I was sat, puffing away, obliviously. I even turned around myself to see what the problem was.
Obviously didn't pay enough attention in my 4 years of German lessons. ;)

[Old_Geezer]

One could point out the the many times a dream did not seem to give a glimpse of the future you have not given a second thought to. Or maybe one can consider the nature of time and think maybe it isn't a past and gone type of flow, as normally thought. Maybe it is all there "at once" and you just experience a bit of it "at a time". In which case perhaps spotting a bit you weren't expecting isn't such a surprise.

[Svejk]

Another fascinating subject, Geezer. Worthy of its own thread?
It would be interesting to hear other peoples' views.(Time)

[Khandro]

OG; Your posts are always well measured but this one is possibly too much so, and can be likened to when a person is giving direction instructions, it's so clear to the 'directer', but to the 'directee' it's seems like a plate of spaghetti. Could you re-phrase it for my simple mind, or shall I enter it for the TLS 'Mario Robles Prize for incomprehensibility', - just teasing :-)