Why Praying Must Be Wrong

[joggerjayne]

One of my pals' eldest has started Philosophy as one A Level option, and I was chatting about the Philosophy of Religion, and how it relates to Theology.

And this came up ...

People say prayers.

But God is omniscient, and sees into everyone's hearts.

So He already knows everything that you are telling him ...

... because He knows EVERYTHING.

And because He also takes care of us (!), He has already decided how to act on the basis of the facts that you are telling him when you pray.

So you are telling God something He already knows, and either ...

Asking Him to do something He has already decided to do (waste of time), or

Asking Him to change His mind. BUT ... because God is infallible, the decision He has already made is, by definition, the correct one, so He will not change His mind, because you are asking Him to abandon the correct decision, and replace it with a wrong decision (also a waste of time).

So, either way, praying is, of necessity, a waste of time.

Just a thought.

[jomifl]

/Prayer isn't about changing the world, it's about changing how we see it./
Try a visit to your local optician, you may be pleasantly surprised.

[sandyRoe]

I'm not sure if they do rose-coloured glasses at Speksavers. And I wouldn't wear them anyway. I think I'm happy enough with my melancholy view of the world.

[modeller]

Whenever the results of prayer have been investigated eg at Lourdes even where there were apparent positive results ( 1 in 3 million ) that is less than what happens naturally.

Before 1914 claims of a cure averaged 57 a year but since then the RC church has tightened up it's procedures and now every claiment has to go before a medical board and since 1978 there has only been 4 recognised cures. Which works out as a 0.0000335% success rate.

//Howerver pilgrims might find some consolation in a British study that tested miracle-seekers at regular intervals for a year after they visited Lourdes and found that they were significantly less anxious and depressed.//

[anneasquith]

I quite like a wee prayer at times. my favourite recipient is saint jude . cause I know God's busy :)

[Khandro]

Prayer is a component of all the world religions, Christian prayers follows the example of Jesus and always they are implicitly qualified with "nevertheless, not my will, buy thy will be done".

[Khandro]

but^

[keyplus90]

Yes, God knows what is good for you and what is not good for you, yes God knows what you want and what he would give to you. Yes you are trying to change God's mind. In all of the cases God knows, do you? No, you don't. How do you know that God did not know that once you would ask him to change his mind and he would?

Once a man asked same kind of question to Ali Ibne Abi Talib (RA), a close companion and son in law of Muhammad (pbuh). Man asked that why should he ask God to give him something if God had already decided about that? He answered that perhaps God had decided that you would ask for it and then it would be given to you.

[naomi24]

//God knows what is good for you and what is not good for you, yes God knows what you want and what he would give to you. //

A bold statement. How do you know?

[Old_Geezer]

Surely a statement of faith ?

[naomi24]

If it's a statement of faith, so be it - but if it's a statement of fact then I question it.

[jim360]

If it were a statement of fact then it would be right whether or not you questioned it!

Seriously, though, it's all a load of nonsense. Even most people who pray don't expect much to come of it directly, except to obtain peace of mind, and to "share" problems, or at least to give them some voice.

[naomi24]

//In all of the cases God knows//

Another apparent statement of fact. How do you know all this Keyplus?

[Khandro]

j.j. You ask; //Why Praying Must Be Wrong// Two weeks ago I learnt that a dear friend had been diagnosed with two brain tumours and has "less than 6 months a to live". A couple of days after hearing this I was in a baroque church in southern Germany (Ravensburg) and I lit a candle for her and prayed that she would not suffer. I know that she will suffer, and praying and the lighting of a candle may not in reality alleviate her suffering, it seemed a pathetically tiny thing to do, but it was all that I could from a thousand miles away,- what can you do in such circumstances?
In a difficult letter I wrote to them I happened to mention this act and her husband has just replied telling me that knowledge of this had significance to her and had given comfort .
I am not a Catholic and she is Jewish. Why must this be wrong?

[keyplus90]

Prayer works or it does not. It is a statement of faith or fact. Whatever it is, no one is forcing anyone here to pray.

One more example of people who are always talking about things they do not believe in. Pure sign of restless minds or minds with no peace.

[naomi24]

It's definitely not a statement of fact.

[keyplus90]

Khandro - I will tell you why according to few it is wrong. The example you gave about your prayer for your friend and comfort she got according to your statement is a "feeling". This breed here only believes in the things they can verify with their given senses. You can't touch, smell, see, hear or taste these “feelings”. When someone wishes you good you feel good, and when someone wishes you bad then you feel bad. If I were to swear or call a bad name to anyone of these here who do not believe in prayer then these people will react as they would feel bad about that. Why? Why would they feel bad when they do not believe in feeling good by someone else? Answer is simple. They only believe in material things or whatever suits them.

[weecalf]

Notice the way some one who is in to Philosophy are the one who question this .I believe that the gift of learning and intelligence is a gift from God .So the great thinkers and intelligent people from all ages used this gift to question the things which people hold dear .No matter who they are or were they come from they can only give a personal opinion which they are entitled to but it does not mean by any means they are right .

[naomi24]

Keyplus, of course people feel good when someone wishes them well – but that isn’t the issue. Read the original question. Is there any point in praying?

[keyplus90]

I, personally have no doubt that prayers work. Yes, it may not work according to what you asked for. But sometimes God listens to your prayer by giving you what you wanted but sometimes by not giving you what you wanted as that something was not good for you. That is the reason as a Muslim I believe that you should be happy with whatever the result of your prayer is as God knew better than you did. I can give countless examples from other people’s lives but I will give one example from my own life. I always liked Skechers shape up trainers (shoes). Those with MBT or whatever design you call them. We all know they were expensive when they came in the market. I am talking about a couple of years ago, and these ones are still over £50. At that time Barrats had them for about £85, and I usually go towards city centre almost every second day just to wonder around. For over three months I went there, saw, and thought that it was too expensive and came back. One day I went there and they were down to £70. I said to myself almost jokingly that I would wait until they come down to about £30. Then I walked according to my set patron to other shops including TK max and there they had those 100% same trainers for exactly £30. Did I buy there and then? Of course I did as that was the fulfilment of my wish or prayer. I still have those and soon after that day (day or two) TK max did not have them anymore and never ever since then. That is one example of fulfilment of the prayer. Now I would give you another example of prayer not being fulfilled for something better.

Without going into long story, I missed the train in October 1999 that had a crash near Ladbroke Grove. I almost ran after the train on the platform. I was cursing myself as I had to be somewhere very important and was now going to be late. I was late as the train I caught after that was dismissed after a couple of stations due to an “unknown incident” and when I got where I had to get using alternative method, the people there were happy to see me as they knew that I used to take that train there. Was I still cursing myself for missing the train? No one would.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, this is something that’s been discussed here many times. The point is God allegedly knows everything, therefore he knew your shoes were going to be reduced in price at a certain shop so there was no point in you praying for that to happen. It was going to happen anyway.

As for missing the train, you didn’t pray for that.