Calm down dear, its just a bunch of extremists

[MargeB]

As predicted, Tony stood in front of the cameras denouncing any attempt by anyone to 'give the terrorists an inch' in suggesting the Iraq war provided justification for suicide bombers.

Am I the only one that gets reaaaaally scared by this?

"Of course Iraq will figure in their twisted logic." No s**t, Tony!!!!!!! The entire world is full of people, and every one of them has a mind that is based on logic!!!!! Saying they were evil won't make them go away! If they feel that they are on the other side of the fence, that you are hostile to them, do you think that wandering into one of their countries, with no recognised mandate, on the back of a marauding religious extremist (in their eyes) America will make them more or less likely to send their boys on to our turf to wage war the only way they know how?

Go about it your way, Tony, but at least get the psychology even basically right. We have to work with THIS world, not some idealized version of it.

Thoughts?

[Dom Tuk]

Even his own think tanks have said that the iraq war has made things worse and one commentator came on TV to say that 'it is ridiculous to suggest that the london bombings have nothing to do with the iraq war'. Tony has finally relented and agreed that Iraq had after all something to do with it. BUT HE HAS GOD ON HIS SIDE. dont you see??. He is good and everyone else is evil. The wicked people are trying to usurp the moralistic values of the free west. We are morally superior. Even though we bomb and maim their children we are still good. We sell them arms and have done so for decades, we are still good and they are evil. So if they were suicide bombers, where are the suicide notes and tapes. They all have a final farewell tape. Maybe the tape mentions the iraq war and tony wont have it released.

[metagirl]

Reminds me of the ending of a fantastic programme about how Al Queda is using the internet to spread their propoganda shown on BBC2 on Monday. Basically, an American expert ended the programme by saying that until Bush comes clear with the American public that it is OUR foreign policy that angers people (Muslim and non Muslim) we will never win this terrorist war. The same goes for Blair.

So why don't the politicians tell their citizens the truth?

[Gevs1966]

I notice how all of you who come on this site and openly criticise Blair and Bush never actually offer up any realistic and workable solutions to any of the problems we face today.

Everyone is very quick to moan and blame others, especially politicians, for every grievance they have with the world. You seem to forget that as part of a democracy we have voted these people in to make these decisions for us. If you were in the same position as Tony Blair right now there is nothing else you could realistically say in public with regard to recent events. No doubt if he had said something different you would have brought him down for that too.

You are all very quick to jump in and put down the western governments capitalist policies (both foreign and at home) for example but yet you still no doubt enjoy the benefits and luxuries that these policies bring yourselves.

I was against the war in Iraq and the impression I get of Tony Blair is not a very good one and I don't particularly like him or Bush for that matter but realistically in situations like this you have to ask yourself, would you be able to do anything much different or infinitely better? I suspect the answer would be no.

[Clanad]

I'm sure this will prove as fruitless as arguing religion, however, where were the U.S. and British forces when these occurred?

1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); six killed.
1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.
1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killed 19 Americans.
1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in East Africa; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.
1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.
2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.
2001 (Sept.): Destruction of WTC; attack on Pentagon. Total dead 2,992.
2001 (Dec.): Man tried to denote shoe bomb on flight from Paris to Miami.
2002 (April): Explosion at historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, including 14 German tourists.
Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.

2002 (May): Car exploded outside hotel in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 14, including 11 French citizens.
2002 (June): Bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.
2002 (Oct.): Boat crashed into oil tanker off Yemen coast, killing one.
2002 (Oct.): Nightclub bombings in Bali, Indonesia, killed 202, mostly Australian citizens.
2002 (Nov.): Suicide attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killed 16.
2003 (May): Suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
2003 (May): Four bombs killed 33 people targeting Jewish, Spanish, and Belgian sites in Casablanca, Morocco.
2003 (Aug.): Suicide car-bomb killed 12, injured 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.
2003 (Nov.): Explosions rocked a Riyadh, Saudi Arabia housing compound, killing 17.
2003 (Nov.): Suicide car-bombers simultaneously attacked two synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 25 and injuring hundreds.
2003 (Nov.): Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 26.


 I don't think we were in Iraq, before any of these...

Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.

What I don't understand is that every intelligence organization in the western countries stated unequivocally that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Were they all in colusion just to invade Iraq?  The widely disseminated report last year indicating there were no such weapons in Iraq also stated (but conveniently ignored) that convoys of trucks leaving Iraq for Syria were confirmed just before the fall of Baghdad.  The extreme elements of the Muslims wanted foreign tropps out of sacred Saudi Arabia... they are gone, but the attacks continue.  Why is it so difficult to understand that this is all about Israel? England and the U.S. have been the staunchest of allies and supporters of Israel, even before since May of 1948. I really would have thought England, of all places, would remember  Chamberlain waving a piece of paper and saying "Peace in our time"...

[jake-the-peg]

That logic's a bit screwy Gevs!

Blair and Bush started the Iraq war with a ton of opposition at the time and now are refusing to accept the consequences.

What would I do if I were Blair or Bush? I'd accept responsibility and resign. (That should have happened when it was acknowleged there were no WMDs in Iraq)

This isn't a pacifist agenda there's no major criticism over Afghanistan it was necessary - Iraq was not

[nedflanders]

How many of the suicide bombers or the failed suicide bombers were Iraqi's or Palestinians? Oh thats right NONE! The fact is, the radicals that are brainwashing these people couldnt care less about Iraq. These people have no political goals do you think if we withdrew from Iraq and Afghanistan (who incidentally were solely to blame for 9/11) USA and Britain would not be a target anymore? Tony Blair as slimey as he is has done more than any other PM for Africa and Palestine!

[jake-the-peg]

Whilst Israel is undoubtedly a factor Clannad I don't think it's the major one.

 When you plaster military bases all over the world to support your "hemispheric interests" (I think that was one of Regan's expressions) and interfere in the internal politics of foreign countries to "promote democracy" you've got to accept that you're going make some enemies. 

Interfering in the politics of other countries is playing with fire and if you play with fire you're going to get burned.

Why exactly does the US need military bases in the UK, Australia, Greenland, Diego Garcia, Equador, France, Germany, Hungary, Honduras, Guam, Italy,Iraq Japan, Korea, Kuwait, Holland, Panama, the Philipines, Qatar...etc.

I mean why do you guys need troops in Kyrgyzstan?

It's not that we don't like you, it's just easy sometimes for the rest of the world to feel a little...how can I put this...Occupied? 

[metagirl]

agree with jake.

in response to Gevs - this is a cheesy answer so bear with me - "as citizens of a democratic country it is our RESPONSIBILITY to observe, scrutinize, analyse and ultimately keep our politicians in line". This may sometimes involve openly disagreeing, but again, it is our right and responsibility to do so. An ignorant populace is a great tragedy and dangerous.

Would I be acting any differently if I were in Bush's or Blair's shoes? Who knows? I can't possibly tell you because, unlike them, I don't have all the information. So because I don't have all the information does that disqualify me from disagreeing? No - refer to to my previous point.

See its all like a carousel, arguing about arguing. that type of debate is best left to husbands and wives.

[georgit79]

Gevs- we all need someone to blame. It makes us feel a bit better. And let's face it, Bush and his lapdog haven't really done much to ingratiate themselves to us recently, have they?

What's the next step? How can we even begin to haul ourselves out of this godawful mess and start to reason with these people? Is reasoning with them even possible?

Who would you feel comfortable to have as your leader now? Because I for one do not feel the slightest bit comfortable in the knowledge that good old Tone has got our backs...

[nedflanders]

Georgit - Isn't it how funny how quickly you forget good news or did you not see the news regarding the succesful drop the debt campaign !.

[jake-the-peg]

They must be dancing in the streets of Niger Ned!

[reportmonkey]

Clanad I absolutely agee, but reading the last few posts I am very very surprised...

Why is promoting democracy seen as a bad thing?  Do any of you feel occupied?  We have American Army bases in this country...so what?  Are they kidnapping your family and torturing them like the Iraqi army used to do before the war.  Are they walking around like they own the place, beating up old people?  Are they censoring free speech on this website the way in which many tyrannies do?  Perhaps people feel that General Musharraf would make a better Leader of Great Britain.

I agree with Clanad this smacks of 'peace in our time'.  The tyrants of this world must be overcome if we are to make poverty history, achive peace and have world unity.  

By the way The people behind these bombings are ultimately self serving...anyone see Osama Bin Laden or Al Zaqwari blowing themselves up?  They seem quite happy to let other people do it. 

[georgit79]

Thanks jake. Successful drop the debt campaign? Yeh, they all look like they're rolling in it now..

[Dom Tuk]

Clanad...with all due respects, do you want me to list all the bombs and explosives that your countrymen have dropped on others. lets start with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What was the drop count inn Baghdad then. Will it fit this page. Will the killings in Vietnam/Afghanistan etc fit this page. Before you say but look at the reasons why we did it....lets also look at the reasons why the list you have so meticulously compiled...took place. You want world domination...you will get it...at a price.

[luckyboy]

Clanned i notice how the anti blair and bush lobby who believe its all down to iraq have not even bothered to answer your detailed list of atrocities carried out by the fascist fanatics..i also notice that blair is being criticised now in some quarters for not doing enough to protect us from terrorists when only a few weeks ago he was being roundly attacked for exaggarating the threat of terrorism.. his critics are having it both ways...i realise btw that defending the dreaded and evil blair risks reprisals.. but what the heck!..

[reportmonkey]

Excuse me? Hiroshima and Nagasaki!!!! I cannot believe anyone who was'nt alive (as I assume) when that war was going on can criticise what course of action was taken.  The Japaneese Military attacked pearl harbour, slaughtered thousands when they occupied China and committed ruthless atrocities against the native population.  They also attacked Pearl Harbour? 

The United States of America Saved Europe from Nazi domination, a regime who murdered gypsies, jews, slavs and anybody considered a deviant....

Ask yourself one question....If you were hurt in those attacks or you were killed, would you still blame Tony Blair...I know...its world war II the Nazis destroyed Coventry lets all blame Winston Churchill! 

[jake-the-peg]

What's your take on Vietnam and Korea Report Monkey?

How about the Sandanista government that was so disliked in Washington that they held a little "garage sale" sale to fund the Contras. The Sandanistas were even elected!

Even now American citizens can and are fined if they have the timerity to visit Cuba because Washington thinks they're nasty! Hows that for freedom?

Whatever your take on Americans or American culture you cannot deny that sucessive American governments have a sorry history of interferring in the internal affairs of other countries.

Of course we're not exactly Persil white ourselves - Suez anybody?  

[Clanad]

Dom Tuk and Jake..the only thing Americans have asked, after defending freedom, is a place to bury our dead.  France, Germany, England, Belgium, Holland, ad infinitum are eternal resting places for thousands upon ten thousands of U.S. service men and women, who, for the most part were either invited or were forced into the fray defending or liberating other countries.  The countries you mention where we have military bases are by mutual agreement.  Many of the bases are remnants of our defenses against the Russians and Chinese when Europe was unable to defend itself.

Japan was willing to sacrifice millions of it's own people to defend against the expected invasion and would have, by legitimate estimates, cost nearly 1 million casualties for the Allies in a war Japan started.  Don't even go there...

Finally, how many documented men, women and children did Hussein murder? If the terrorists are so interested in liberating and saving the Iraqi people, why is it the Iraqi people are the ones being killed daily?  I must be missing something here...