Christianity Explored Course Update

[modeller]

I went to the first session of St Marks gospel which as I'm sure you know starts with the prophecy of Isiaah, on which the Christain myth depends.
I told them the whole prophecy is a lie and a fabrication, which made me very popular, at least with the other students.

[modeller]

Yes Naomi it has made interesting reading. Digressing from the thread . I read recently the story of Horus which you might like to share , it is one of 180 similar ones to the birth of Christ :
It includes a Star in the East. Birth to a virgin mother.
Baptised in Jordon aged 30.The baptizer was executed. Horus was a fisher of men and had 12 followers. He walked on water and healed the sick.
He and God were as one. He was known as the Lamb , Lion and Light of the world and source of eternal life. He delivered a sermon on the mount. He was crucified between two thieves buried in a tomb and was resurrected and tranfigured on a mountain. Descended into hell and preached to the souls before he arose from the dead.

No doubt our theist friends will say that and the rest of the 180 similar birth stories of prophets are of course all coincidences.

[naomi24]

There are many legends of ancient gods that bear striking similarities to the biblical story of Christ - Mithras in particular - but I'm not aware of 180. Where did that come from?

[modeller]

It was emailed to me and I have seen it in different forms on the web . It's all fantasy but I was in Egypt and I do remember being told a similar story.

[naomi24]

Have you got a link?

[modeller]

I didn't but I believe the book Christ in Egypt deals with Horus , and
I found this link which discusses it further.http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3205

There is also the book called Nonsense from the Bible, by an ex pastor Brian Baker. which deals with many myths.

[naomi24]

Modeller, there’s no doubt that ancient accounts of virgin births, etc, etc., abound, indicating that aspects of the story were filched from elsewhere. However, if, in an effort to validate our opinion, we employ unsubstantiated claims, we are doing exactly as the religious do – and that gets us nowhere. I, personally, am unaware of 180 separate gods who share a legend with Jesus – but if anyone is, I’d be interested in seeing the list.

[idiosyncrasy]

There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.

Flavius Josephus, a historian born A.D. 37.
Cornelius Tacitus, born sometime between A.D. 52 and 57
Justin Martyr, born A.D. 100 in Palestine, called himself a Samaritan
Suetonius and Pliny the Younger, other Roman writers of the time, also referred to Christ.

I for one would not just put my faith and trust in any old book, I have studied it for 30 years now and believe me, it is not "hearsay" here are some examples of why I believe it is the word of God—

1. It is filled with prophecies reflecting detailed knowledge of the future—something impossible for humans.

2. Its contents are scientifically sound on matters that human researchers discovered only at a later date

3. Its internal harmony is significant

Some points I would just like to comment on.

//At that moment, St. Luke - himself a doctor - records that Jesus sweated drops of blood onto the path before him.//
The scriptures do not say he sweated actual blood - but that it was like blood.

“And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.”
—Luke 22:44 (NKJV)
This is an indication to us of how severe his suffering was. It points to the fact that he was fully man. He FELT it all in his physical body and knowing what was coming was extreme anguish in his mind and emotions.

//As it was, the imposter , if there was one, spent ages trying to persuade them.//
At the outset, it is incorrect to assert that “nobody recognized Him,” because Matthew 28:9,17 clearly implies that at least some of Jesus’ disciples knew Who He was and worshipped Him.

When Jesus was resurrected, he was not resurrected in the body he was known as. This had been given up (sacrificed). He appeared in different guises, it was his actions or characteristics that identified him to his close associates.

Naomi @ Mark 6 v 3 This is the carpenter the son of Mary and the brother of James and Joseph and Judas and Simon, is it not? And his sisters are here with us, are they not?”
This does not conflict with Matthew's account "Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? "

Different people view things differently (as can be seen onthis site).

//The story of a 12 year old illiterate boy going into the temple and debating//
Who or where does it say that Jesus was illiterate?

Literacy was always important to Israel especially as education at a young age was encouraged by the Jewish leadership.

The ancient Kings of Isreal were commanded to read and copy the law of Moses.
“Also it shall be, when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write for himself a copy of this law in a book, from the one before the priests, the Levites. And it shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God and be careful to observe all the words of this law and these statutes, - Deuteronomy 17 v 18 & 19.

[modeller]

ideo //People will die for what they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a lie.//
Just because you believe something doesn't make it true. It can still be a lie. e.g The Egyptians, Greeks and Romans all died in their thousands because they believed . They and us believed our kings were gods or ruled by devine right.
Today 6 billion people in the world do not believe in our God and will die for their belief. Are they dying for a lie ?
You believe numbers count . OK ! Then remember Christians are outnumbered 7 to 1. or put it another way only one person in eight is a Christian. So whose living a lie ?

[modeller]

ideo //Literacy was always important to Israel especially as education at a young age was encouraged by the Jewish leadership.// Give me a link !

At that time 95% of Jewish Palestine were illiterate and remained so until the 19th century.
Why is there not a single word written by JC ? Or his fishermen friends.

//At the outset, it is incorrect to assert that “nobody recognized Him,” //

Luke 36- 40 All 11 disciples were there and JC but THEY still didn't recognise or believe and he had to persuade them.

The point is all of them should have recognised him. Not one of his followers did . Not even after appearing 3 times. They had to be persuaded.

[modeller]

ideo Mark 16:14
14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

[idiosyncrasy]

Modeller//Literacy was always important to Israel especially as education at a young age was encouraged by the Jewish leadership.// Give me a link !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_ancient_Israel_and_Judah
http://mikrarevivim.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/literacy-in-ancient-israel.html

[idiosyncrasy]

Modeller//Why is there not a single word written by JC ? Or his fishermen friends//
Both Peter and John were fishermen. They both wrote letters .ie: 1 & 2nd Books of Peter.
Gospel of John, 1, 2, & 3 letters of John and Revelation.

[idiosyncrasy]

Modeller//Today 6 billion people in the world do not believe in our God and will die for their belief. Are they dying for a lie ? //
Simple answer - Yes.

[modeller]

Your link agrees with what I said . //least 90 percent of the Jewish population of Roman Palestine in the first centuries CE could merely write their own name or not write and read at all,[2] or that the literacy rate was about 3 percent.[3]//

The disputed books of Peter and those of John were written in advanced classical Greek most probably in Rome . In about AD 80 .

You have sustantiated my original statement.
# there is not a single word written by JC ? Or his fishermen friends. #

[modeller]

ideo //Simple answer - Yes. //
TIt's refreshing to get a straight answer

[Peter Pedant]

eek some of the comments are true and then followed by incredible non sequiturs.

The NT was written in NT Greek - I havent seen 'advanced Classical' - Late hellenistic perhaps. It was the only document from that time and so for 2000 y there was intense discussion about whether it was written in its own style or else it was in its own time and typical of a common style.i
Written in Greek altho it is agreed from the style that the script was said in Aramaic

The Oxyrhych papyri have answered that question but others arise

Letters of Paul before the Gospels: that has always surprised me.
John was written in Rome only if you think Babylon was Rome (as in ***) - there was a quarter of Cairo called Babylon - and if you have 'done' Egypt you will inevitably have been told this

but none of this really shows it is all a lie and a fabrication....


and so far no one has mentioned Q !

[modeller]

Ideo It's refreshing to get a sraight answer . Six billlion people in the world are wrong. Two billion , Christians, Jews and Muslims together are right. ( same God )

I was told recently, by a vicar , out of those 2 billion (in Abrahamic faiths ) only the one billion Christians are eligible for heaven and of those only those who proclaim their faith in church (and are as one with Christ ) . Which worldwide that's about a quarter of a billion . That's about 1in 32 of world's population . Is that right ?

I assume you are one of them

[modeller]

peter I didn't mention Q because it is not identifiable and may not exist in any form.

[modeller]

Ideo May I also remind you that John's Gospel was not written by a single person but was a compolation of the Johannine Community who embelished all the other Gospels none of whom were written by any of the apostles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Johannine_works

[jomifl]

ideo, you cannot make anything more true by studying it for longer.