I Saw This In A Forum About Pilgrimages. Is It Worth Sharing?

[sandyRoe]

The Danish scientist, mathematician, inventor, designer, author, poet Piet Hein created many wise small poems. Here is one:

The road to wisdom? Well, it's plain
And simple to express:
Err
and err
and err again,
but less
and less
and less

[mibn2cweus]

//It looks as though the topic has slipped by under the radar of the Godless ABers. That's a pity as a squalid business like this is best dealt with by being exposed.//

This brings into question not only "...the radar of the Godless ABers" . . . unless it's some fancy way the 'Good Shepherd' has devised for testing the faith of His little lambkins whilst His gaze was conveniently fixated upon the sparrow.

[solvitquick]

Dear Sandy,
It's a pity you have included the RC row in the same thread as the Danish poem.
Nope it didn't slip under my radar when it appeared, I just found the poem more fun.
It does not take a "wicked atheist" to bring the RC business corporation (O.K. church if you like) into disrepute, they've done a much better job of it themselves!
Nice sarcasm jomifl. You started me on this track so it's your fault as usual:).
As an atheist, I do not believe that it is the responsibility of the UN to try to call any so-called religious organisation to order. Where would it end (?) as they are all a bunch hypocritical crooks preying on the innocent.
These disgraceful matters, not at all restricted to the RCs, are for the laws of individual states and for the congregations of their churches.
As in many areas the UN are impotent and hence ignored but this is a ridiculous step too far by them!
Thanks for the info sandy as I never knew that the UN saw such matters as part of their mandate.
Your atheist friend,
SIQ.

[jomifl]

I think the concern of the UN is that the RC church is deliberately putting known paedophiles beyond the reach of the law by sheltering them in the Vatican which being a state in it's own right can do what the hell or heaven it likes.

[sandyRoe]

I believe there's an African Cardinal held there. He was recalled to Rome to discuss his interest in Black Magic and never returned to his flock. Would the Vatican have dungeons somewhere?

[jomifl]

Surely you've read 'Angels& Demons' Sandy?

[sandyRoe]

No, no. I'm not going to put money into the pocket of Dan Brown to enable him to mock all I hold dear.

[solvitquick]

Dear birdie1971,
Thank you for explaining to me what the matter did not involve and what it did but I'm sorry to say you wasted your time as these heinous crimes have been public knowledge for years.
In my answer I described the matters as disgraceful. Of course I condemn the evil acts of people involved including those trying to hide the criminals.
My points are:
(a) the RC are not alone in this - the C of E, TV and its "celebrities" and various other bodies involved with children. I condemn all for the heinous acts and cover-ups. However should the UN be involved?
(b) If anyone believes the UN can influence any of these criminal and disgusting acts they are living in cloud-cuckoo land. Even individual states pick and mix which US resolutions to obey or disobey so what chance the so called "churches".
Please see my answer referring to individual state law and the congregation as the only solution.
By "where does it end?" I thought anyone would realise that I was asking how many religious attrocities should the UN be involved in solving. You now prompt me to add how many will it solve?
I am no apologist for any crimes against humanty and condemn them
out-of-hand.
Here on sandy's thread, poem apart, as I see it, it's all about the raison d'etre for the UN and the usual impotence of the UN.
Sure we all feel warm and good if someone other than ourselves is speaking out for us but it's all non-papal bull if the result is simply a big fat zero.
With Kindest Regards,
SIQ.

[solvitquick]

Birdie,
I respond to your last post as you are confused by my last two missives which make my over-riding points clear although there appear to be certain aspects which appear to open the door to determined nit-pickers.
(a) Forget the "With all due respect" as I detect no such thing in your post, merely insult, twisting of my points and a determination to start a personal argument. In the latter you will not succeed as it takes two!
(b) Re: the UN involvement, I maintain that they are impotent in most areas and particularly the religious one (as demonstrated in the article referenced by sandy). I repeat that these are matters for individual state law and the religious congregations.
(c) Regarding heinous sexual assaults on children or even adults you argue that it's all about the size of the institution and its religious affiliation that matters. See your own stats and conclusion "The C of E has just 2.5% of what the RC has".
So heinous crimes are proportonal to the size of the institution are they? And morality is about numbers not actions is it?
This implies that the UN has no role in sorting out similar/identical crimes and cover-ups in the C of E. or other religions or institutions. Has it or has it not, Birdie?
(d) It does not need the UN to heighten public awareness of these crimes as you allege. These have been and are being continually reported by the media, police and the victims themselves.
(e) Your last point about me "doing a good job defending the RC Church" is so ridiculous and insulting as to demean you more than me!
SIQ.

[jomifl]

Birdie, I agree that the UN should make known to the world what the RC church is doing. We in western europe are aware because the RC church has relatively little influence over the organs of state or the press. In some counties such as the Phillipines or the South American states I doubt that the news reports re. RC church have been allowed to emerge because of the scheming and manipultions of the church.

[solvitquick]

Birdie1971,
If we are to reach a reasonably rational conclusion then let's do it in stages eh?
I should be grateful if you would stop using the phrase "expaining to you". I do not need you to explain anything to me - in fact you have yet to give me any hard information in any of your posts, merely your opinions as to where you think you are right and I am wrong. I'm a grown reasonably well educated and intelligent man and I should appreciate being treated as such or at least being treated with civility.
Verbal protesting against horrendous crimes is of course right (statement of the obvious to any decent citizen).
However yours, mine and the UN's voices are useless against the Vatican who will ignore us all. Maybe, and this is the worse outcome, they will paper over a few cracks. Why the worse outcome? Because it will allow the heinous criminality to proceed as per usual while satisfying many that the probems are solved.
They and their ilk in the C of E will only respond to force.
By force I mean state criminality prosecutions and congregational peaceful uprising. I would now add exclusion of the so-called "Holy See" from the UN. This is a powerful role allowing the "Holy See" to enter debates, influence UN decisions and debates.
Guess how many debates have occurred over the crimes in question.
Yup, you got it - None!
I want action and the criminals punished (not namby-pamby reformed). In these and certain other crimes, I believe in the death penalty. And "yes", I would pull the leaver!
Hence I should be grateful if you would withdraw your rude description of my views as "absurd and defeatist!
I must, stop for now, but will end by repeating my earlier question in simple isolated terms: "As well as addressing the RC sexual and other crimes of cover-up, should the UN also challenge the C of E in similar manner?"
Please answer with a straight unqualified "yes" or "no" if you can bring yourself to utter an answer which I doubt.
Regards,
SIQ.

[solvitquick]

Dear jomifl,
I don't know if you mean to support the nub of birdie's argument or mine.
I maintain that your statement supports my argument that the UN's talk without action will yield nothing, much as we would all like to see a really significant result.
If, as you say, South Americans and Filipinos are more ignorant of the RC crimes and cover-ups then it means that the UN's talks are an even greater waste of effort when viewed from a world perspective.
What point are you trying to make?
Kind Regards,
SIQ.

[Peter Pedant]

I like Piet Hein - he Dutch or a Danish ?

what about - There was a young lady from Spain
who was terribly sick in a train
not once but again, and again and again
and again and again and again

not sudduv so religious I agree but still catchy and thought worthy

[sandyRoe]

And in those repetitive, 'agains', you can clearly hear the rhythm of the rattling train wheels. Onomatopoeic?

[solvitquick]

The noise of the train. Reminds me of Neil Diamond's great "Beautiful Noise" - "Like the clickety clack of the train on the track, it's got rhythm to spare". Song about New York's noises and ends poetically: "And it's waiting for me just to give it a tune"
SIQ.

[solvitquick]

Dear sandy and peter,
Nice poem peter.
Sandy don't think "again" etc is onomatopoeic really - alliterative despite using same word but just repetitive - yup like a train's noise.
Diamond's clickety-clack onomatopoeic particularly re old train systems as they crossed regular junctions of short-length rails.
Kindest regards,
Not sick but
SIQ.

[jomifl]

SIQ, I wasn't attempting to support anyone's point of view, just expressing my own.