School Task - Conversion To Islam

[agchristie]

Is this wise?

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/02/20/school-sets-children-task-of-writing-letter-explaining-their-conversion-to-islam/

[Svejk]

//If you read my posts from the point of view of seeing what they actually say, instead of looking for a reason to pull them apart and pick a fight - you would be able to see them.//

///My post was hastily written, and ill-thought-out, I am happy to concede that it does not contribute to the debate, and withdraw it.///

[andy-hughes]

svejk - ///If you read my posts from the point of view of seeing what they actually say, instead of looking for a reason to pull them apart and pick a fight - you would be able to see them.//

///My post was hastily written, and ill-thought-out, I am happy to concede that it does not contribute to the debate, and withdraw it.///

Delighted as I am to see my deathless prose re-printed - is there actually a point you wish to make?

In order to save you some time - if your response is simply going to be to have another dig, or try and pick a fight, then save some web space, because it will be ignored.

[Hypognosis]

@divebuddy

//fair enough Pixie. But I don't suppose it was about how they brought hyper inflation under control and restored the economy to something approaching sanity or banning vivisection.//

How Nazism achieved an economic turnaround is always lost in the noise about their later acts of evil. I've never seen a serious analysis, give or take my preference for TV/radio documentaries over more proper (book) sources.

My hideously uninformed opinion is that it was achieved by putting half the nation to work in factories, building the Luftwaffe, Panzers, submarines, a token Navy and so on. Fascism is basically "government of the people by the corporations, for the corporations", as far as I can make out. Hence its diametric opposition to communism.

It was the bit about banning vivisection which stimulated me to reply. I'd not heard this said before and it is particularly ironic seeing as how they ended up experimenting on live humans.

Sentimental, animal-loving, mass-murdering psychopaths. Such an odd combination of traits. But good with the economy.

(cough, hack, wheeze, choke, puke)

[Hypognosis]

@andy-hughes

not to labour the point but to judge all Christians by the behaviour of their most zealous, violent, adherents, who walked, took hazardous boat voyages and walked even more (deja vu?), with the express purpose of killing adherents of two other faiths (Jews were treated little differently to their Muslim victims, remember), is only marginally different from judging all Muslims by the begaviour of jihadists.

The subtle difference? Crusaders were acting on the orders of their Religious leader (no Orthodox equivalent???), whereas the defence of Islam (and its territory; implied if not expressly stated) is written into the tenets of the faith. Mohammed was a warlord like any other and obviously didn't want all his hard work and shed blood to go to waste. Sort of a tacit assumption, by an effective general, that subsequent generations will be complacent and weak and historical gains lost, with further loss of life.

To get into his head, just play a history-based wargame.

[naomi24]

Talbot, //Why bother to cover it up if it is condoned?//
//andy-hughes, //Within the Catholic church - it is condoned.//

Perverted priests cover it up but neither the Catholic religion, nor Christian scripture, condones it.

pixie374. // it's a misrepresentation of what they are actually taught and that I think children should be taught about it.//

No. What they are taught is a misrepresentation of Islam. They are not teaching children about it. They are teaching a highly sanitised version far removed from the reality. That isn’t ‘education’.

[andy-hughes]

Hypognosis - //not to labour the point but to judge all Christians by the behaviour of their most zealous, violent, adherents, who walked, took hazardous boat voyages and walked even more (deja vu?), with the express purpose of killing adherents of two other faiths (Jews were treated little differently to their Muslim victims, remember), is only marginally different from judging all Muslims by the begaviour of jihadists.

The subtle difference? Crusaders were acting on the orders of their Religious leader (no Orthodox equivalent???), whereas the defence of Islam (and its territory; implied if not expressly stated) is written into the tenets of the faith. Mohammed was a warlord like any other and obviously didn't want all his hard work and shed blood to go to waste. Sort of a tacit assumption, by an effective general, that subsequent generations will be complacent and weak and historical gains lost, with further loss of life. //

Thank you for your erudite explanation of why my post was inaccurate, but if you go to the previous page, you will find that I have acknowledged my error already.

// To get into his head, just play a history-based wargame. //

I'm sorry, I have no idea what that means.

[Hypognosis]

@jomifl

//
jomifl
The sooner all religions are consigned to the dusbin of history the better. Children have enough to try to comprehend without the extra burden of numerous irrational fantasy worlds.
15:58 Wed 24th
//

{Like}

To be fair, it's not just Harry Potter, role-playing-game worlds and so forth. Every book, film, play, TV drama we watch entails taking in an imaginary world (albeit contemporary stuff strongly resemblant of our own lives). There are hundreds of these to take on board, across a lifetime. Our depth of understanding may be shallow, at times, depending on the depth of the production or our level of attentiveness.

Granted, things are different for children. New stories being absorbed have a smaller background of previous works absorbed thus far. Stories received early have bigger influence and colour every life experience and subsequent story absorbed.

To reduce an entire religion to… what? 30 minutes? An hour? Imagine a 1 hour documentary; could it *summarise* any religion and do it justice?

Footnote: the material on the cutting room floor would be the most enlightening of all. Lawyers, trying to keep the makers safe from prosecution and religious leaders wanting to vet what is said about their faith. Only the 'nice' stuff would be left over. Could be a lot of recaps and "coming up later"s.

[Hypognosis]

@andy-hughes

\\// To get into his head, just play a history-based wargame. //

I'm sorry, I have no idea what that means.\\

Conquer something. Feel responsible for the death of your countrymen in winning it. Then have someone steal it from you. How angry are you, in response?

Jesus says: turn the other cheek (let your enemy walk all over you and laugh in your face etc.

Mo says… what?

[pixie374]

Naomi -/
No. What they are taught is a misrepresentation of Islam. They are not teaching children about it. They are teaching a highly sanitised version far removed from the reality. That isn’t ‘education’. //

As I keep saying, that's so inaccurate. I don't call extremism "sanitised". It does have to be age appropriate too though.

[Hypognosis]

@pixie

Men must maintain their wives; wives must obey.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nisa,_34

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nisa,_34

[pixie374]

Why are you quoting that, hypo?

[Hypognosis]

@ag_christie

//Is it wise? //

Only time will tell. The fallout hasn't had time to settle (assignment due date is early in March so some of the parents may be unaware of it, if they don't follow Breitbart.

In the back-pedalling "you are not actually converting to Islam" thing is a bit about "demonstrating your ability to argue a point". Given the first point, the exercise is, in fact, teaching them how to write a lie, addressed to their parents.

What the fun are they playing at?

Okay, so all creative writing is lies but it is a giant leap from a child's made up fantasy land to a personal letter declaring a change of faith. Even as an atheist, I understand what a major plank of some people's lives a faith is. Goodness knows what some Sharia fanatic would make of such play-acting. Yes, even though it was an attempt at being nice, about Islam.

[Hypognosis]

@pixie

I had hoped naomi would give you chapter and verse, in support about her comments about Islam's treatment of women but she is either not about the place or is no longer following this thread.

So, it was for you to have a brief look at. See what you make of it.

We're barely 40 years progress from Women's Lib ourselves. Back in the day, not having to have the wife also work was a status-symbol for a man. Sexism ("woman can't XYZ") probably came from a later generation of men, who hadn't realised that.

[pixie374]

Thank you.... I am well aware of that. I would never defend any religion in any way. My point is just that we need to educate our children about it.

[naomi24]

Pixie, yesterday you confessed that you are ‘fairly ignorant’ on the subject of Islam, and yet here you are telling me “That’s so inaccurate”. How does that work?

It is not inaccurate and I am not talking about extremism. Islam as taught to your children is sanitised. Put simply, no one tells the kids the bad bits and so they emerge from this ‘education’ with a rosy view of Islam that bears no resemblance to the reality – just like the image you seem to have of Islam.

//My point is just that we need to educate our children about it. //

But you're not educating your children about it and neither are the educators. You are naively allowing other people to mislead your children. If you want to educate them, tell them the truth – and if you don’t know what that is – and by your own admission you don’t - find out what it is.

Hypognosis, // I had hoped naomi would give you chapter and verse, in support about her comments about Islam's treatment of women but she is either not about the place or is no longer following this thread.//

I’ve been too busy today to keep up – just popped into AB for a moment or two here and there so I’ve not read all the posts here. If time allows I’ll try harder tomorrow.

[Hypognosis]

@pixie

//I would never defend any religion in any way. //

Spoken like a true atheist. :-D

I'm also atheist but, for reasons I don't understand, often find myself volunteering to defend someone/thing which I feel is being attacked unfairly. I like balance and try to be objective and impartial.

(Note: no-one trusts you, if you make a habit of not taking sides, so don't rush to copy me. I just can't help myself).

//My point is just that we need to educate our children about it.//

Fair point. Now try to get three or more people to agree with the 'right' way to meet that word 'educate', when one of them has a stance like naomi and one if them is a pillar of the Muslim community and another is yourself.

It would be unreasonable of me to insist that you read any of the 15-page threads, typical of R&S in which objectionable aspects of more than one faith are explored. Only you know how much free time you have for this. If I was in full health I would have a job and a nice life but not enough free time. I would be blissfully unaware of what I've learned here. Sometimes a debater on The Big Questions will try to get a shock revelation across but either get moderated by the host or talked across, to blot out what is being said.

Or the classic "that's a misinterpretation of that verse".

I guess most British-born Muslims cannot read Arabic letters, let alone understand the language. A man in Pakistan got handed a death sentence after translating a passage into his own language (must have been tricked into it as it was all caught on video tape). So what they learn, in UK can only be as close to the original text as the King James version is to the Aramaic/Greek/Latin bible. Their belief system is only as good as the translator responsible for the English language edition. There are any number of Imams and freelance scholars, waiting, in the wings, to school even full grown adults in what the contentious verses actually mean.

Needless to say, when I copy and pasted Arabic text of the verse concerning what to to do unbelievers (the key action word defied Google translate, which was interesting in itself), the silence here was deafening. Either they are forbidden from translating it (it would be assisting infidels) or they're acutely embarrased about what that word means.

One added complication. When a westerner learns Arabic, it may be because they are an Arabophile first and they'd probably not want to risk trashing the part of their social network where all the money is by tackling such a task, openly.

[pixie374]

"Fairly ignorant"- I didn't say I've never heard of it :-). And "inaccurate" is not referring to the other links on Islam, it's about the impression the OP gives on what children are taught. I hope you read the rest of the posts,I've said exactly the same thing about 30 different ways now. I don't know about your daughter at school, but I've said what mine did, including extremism and I'm not sure where you are getting this sanitised version from. That is not what they are taught. And it's not what I tell them. They also have internet and see the news.

Exactly hypo. This OP could have been about the way science is taught, languages, or anything else. If it's not accurate, in my experience, I would still say so. They are taught about the negatives too and I can't make it any clearer than that!

[naomi24]

Pixie, //They are taught about the negatives too //

And what 'negatives' would they be?