Epicurus

[wildwood]

Happened to come across this quote. Can anyone argue with this?


Is God willing to prevent evil, but he can not?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both willing and able?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able or willing?
Then why call him God?

[naomi24]

That's been posted here many times in the past. Still makes sense.

[Old_Geezer]

Evil is a human construct. Deities are not held to them. Who is to say the present path/situation is not the best means to achieve the required end anyway ?

[naomi24]

Deities are a human construct.

[Old_Geezer]

IYO

[naomi24]

OG, Yes, in my opinion. I've seen nothing to convince me otherwise. Have you?

[Old_Geezer]

Until I understand the process whereby anything exists, including maths, I'm entitled to muse over the possibility.

[naomi24]

OG, of course you're entitled to muse. It's just that 'Deities are not held to them' seemed a positive claim rather than a 'muse' - if you see what I mean.

[Old_Geezer]

I'm positive that if deities exist they aren't bound to what their creations insist is so. The tail doesn't tend to wag the dog.

Listening to some request does not imply obligatory compliance with the request.

[mibn2cweus]

The greatest of all evils by virtue of its consequences may well be that anyone ever believed in a divine overseer of reality that gives a damn about our well-being.

[naomi24]

OG, //Listening to some request does not imply obligatory compliance with the request. //

How do you square that with //Is he able, but not willing [to prevent evil]?
Then he is malevolent. //

[Khandro]

Can anyone argue with this?
Yes, it's infantile nonsense. Old Geezer has it right.

[naomi24]

Khandro, // it's infantile nonsense.//

Why?

[Old_Geezer]

"He" may well not accept it is evil; may not even accept there is such a thing since it is a human construct. And one can not assign malevolence without evidence, nor can one know the alternative outcomes were something changed.

[naomi24]

OG, // one can not assign malevolence without evidence//

So you want evidence for the malevolence of God but not for the existence of God. That you’re happy to muse over.

//Evil …is a human construct.//

Why? If God is the omnipotent creator, it follows that he created evil.

[Khandro]

The ancient Greeks did not speak of 'God' in the singular and there is no evidence that Epicurus ever said that 'quote'. There is evidence in the small amount of his writings which survived, that he believed the gods (plural) did neither punish or reward humans which was controversial in his time, (300BC).
The subject of evil begins and ends with man.

[naomi24]

Khandro, that doesn’t explain why you think the quote is ”infantile nonsense”, and if you believe that God is the creator, it doesn’t explain why you think “The subject of evil begins and ends with man”.

[Khandro]

naomi I spent some care writing this for another thread this morning which you may have read already, but it explains my position on this type of subject;

"We cannot say "God exists" and "we exist" in anything like the same way, we cannot argue from one to the other - from our being to that of God.
God is unknown and unknowable, a mystery. When we are aware of this it generates awe, reverence and an admission of incomprehension.
Augustine said, "if you comprehend it, it is not God" and, invenitur quaerendus - "he is found in order to be sought".

[Old_Geezer]

One needs no evidence to be able to muse over the existence of a deity for there is a beginning of all things that is unexplained, so I can postulate a deity of some type to account for that if I wish.

However having decided to consider a deity to exist as the cause, for the purposes of further discussion, then claiming it has attributes and furthermore claiming to be able to assign some to them, does need justification for what has been assigned.

If there is no such thing as 'evil' how can a deity have created it ? There is no evidence that God has claimed there is such a thing. Things can be just as they are. It is always humans that have claimed that there is 'good' and 'evil'.

[naomi24]

Khandro, all of that is a product of your fertile imagination. St Augustine had the same problem.

OG, who said there is no such thing as evil? It is mentioned frequently and figures quite prominently in the Bible.