ChatterBank2 mins ago
This Has Blown My Paradigm
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Ive always been sceptical of the paranormal. In the past I have been the token sceptic member of a paranormal research group, (At one time in my youth I subscribed to skeptic magazine).
Ive read virtually all of James Randis publications at one time or another, along with many other debunkers.
However, this afternoon, I was spending some time with a female friend of mine when she casually mentioned about a 'reading' that she had had from a 'psychic' and that this reading was recorded on a CD. Up for a bit of fun I asked her to find it and play it, (so that I could pick holes in it...)
After years of visiting mediums etc myself and finding nothing of significance, I was blown away by this. Not, at any point, was any information requested, (nor given) names and dates were given,
and information was relayed that the 'reader' could not have known beforehand.
(including names of first boyfriend that has since died, Fathers mental illness, number..and sex..of children, participants current relationship with family, including the fact that she had only one sister and a step father)
To get the full story one would have to listen to the CD, but its blown my mind (and I'm a complete sceptic) Might have to book myself in and see for myself! ;-)
Ive read virtually all of James Randis publications at one time or another, along with many other debunkers.
However, this afternoon, I was spending some time with a female friend of mine when she casually mentioned about a 'reading' that she had had from a 'psychic' and that this reading was recorded on a CD. Up for a bit of fun I asked her to find it and play it, (so that I could pick holes in it...)
After years of visiting mediums etc myself and finding nothing of significance, I was blown away by this. Not, at any point, was any information requested, (nor given) names and dates were given,
and information was relayed that the 'reader' could not have known beforehand.
(including names of first boyfriend that has since died, Fathers mental illness, number..and sex..of children, participants current relationship with family, including the fact that she had only one sister and a step father)
To get the full story one would have to listen to the CD, but its blown my mind (and I'm a complete sceptic) Might have to book myself in and see for myself! ;-)
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The balance between keeping an open mind and being healthily sceptical is a difficult one to find. I think in practice most people tend to fail because, no matter how much we'd like to believe in our own senses, they let us down more often than people care to admit.
Still, if you do go along, enjoy the experience.
Still, if you do go along, enjoy the experience.
I've probably mentioned this before, but I once went to see an osteopath I didn't know, while I was travelling abroad. She asked if her friend could have a look at me. He sat down and held my wrist for a few minutes. In that time he told me I'd had an operation in which the anaesthetic caused me some problems, and that I'd had a car accident. Both were correct. He had absolutely no way of knowing.
I'm not saying he was psychic, and he wasn't either (he was a bandleader in his main job, he was just visiting his friend the osteo). I can only think he was exceptionally sensitive in his reading of what my body could tell him.
Not in the same league as telling me the name of my first lover or anything. But I'd be tempted to go along too, nailit.
I'm not saying he was psychic, and he wasn't either (he was a bandleader in his main job, he was just visiting his friend the osteo). I can only think he was exceptionally sensitive in his reading of what my body could tell him.
Not in the same league as telling me the name of my first lover or anything. But I'd be tempted to go along too, nailit.
Whether or not answers are forthcoming, it’s wise to post questions in the appropriate category. Posting such a question here assumes that this subject is in some way connected to Religion and/or Spirituality. If it didn't garner some response in Science from the scientifically minded then all I can say is they're not as scientifically minded as they think they are.
Speaking as a scientifically-minded person, the point really is, as usual, that the onus isn't on "science" to provide answers, but the proponents. That aside, what scientists can do, at least, is to provide something of a "checklist", that any particular claim of a genuine "paranormal" incident ought to be tested against before the claim should be taken more seriously.
I can't say I can provide an exhaustive list of what should be on the checklist, but essentially it would range from eliminating all of the more mundane (or sinister) explanations for what happened. It's not difficult to find cases of self-proclaimed psychics who turned out to be deliberately fraudulent, for example. Doesn't have to be deliberate, either. In one fairly famous, related example, a German horse owner claimed that his horse was able to count and perform simple arithmetic. It was, in fact, demonstrated that several things were true:
(1) The horse owner (von Osten) wasn't at all being dishonest, and genuinely believed that he'd trained his horse to count;
(2) The horse couldn't count as well as von Osten thought it could; and could only get the answers right when von Osten knew them himself -- and when the horse could see von Osten.
(3) Or, indeed, this was true with any other person.
(4) Turns out that the horse (Clever Hans) was relying on certain subconscious cues that it should stop "counting" given away by the questioner, eg tensing up when it was nearly time to stop and relaxing when the "last" tap of its hoof was made.
Now, for the record, I am by no means claiming that the psychic your friend saw was relying on essentially the same tricks or cues or whatever as the horse was. What I *am* saying is that the sort of testing the horse went through, is required in order to rule out such explanations and leave only the truly "paranormal" -- whatever that may turn out to be.
Science has a tendency to stick stubbornly to what it knows, or thinks it knows, until it has no option but to let go in the face of overwhelming evidence. Whether that's a weakness or a strength is a matter of opinion, perhaps. For myself, I think there's something to be said for being careful not to get too excited every time you think you've hit on something new that shows previous scientific orthodoxy to be wrong, and to test very, very carefully indeed whether your new ideas are right after all.
I can't say I can provide an exhaustive list of what should be on the checklist, but essentially it would range from eliminating all of the more mundane (or sinister) explanations for what happened. It's not difficult to find cases of self-proclaimed psychics who turned out to be deliberately fraudulent, for example. Doesn't have to be deliberate, either. In one fairly famous, related example, a German horse owner claimed that his horse was able to count and perform simple arithmetic. It was, in fact, demonstrated that several things were true:
(1) The horse owner (von Osten) wasn't at all being dishonest, and genuinely believed that he'd trained his horse to count;
(2) The horse couldn't count as well as von Osten thought it could; and could only get the answers right when von Osten knew them himself -- and when the horse could see von Osten.
(3) Or, indeed, this was true with any other person.
(4) Turns out that the horse (Clever Hans) was relying on certain subconscious cues that it should stop "counting" given away by the questioner, eg tensing up when it was nearly time to stop and relaxing when the "last" tap of its hoof was made.
Now, for the record, I am by no means claiming that the psychic your friend saw was relying on essentially the same tricks or cues or whatever as the horse was. What I *am* saying is that the sort of testing the horse went through, is required in order to rule out such explanations and leave only the truly "paranormal" -- whatever that may turn out to be.
Science has a tendency to stick stubbornly to what it knows, or thinks it knows, until it has no option but to let go in the face of overwhelming evidence. Whether that's a weakness or a strength is a matter of opinion, perhaps. For myself, I think there's something to be said for being careful not to get too excited every time you think you've hit on something new that shows previous scientific orthodoxy to be wrong, and to test very, very carefully indeed whether your new ideas are right after all.
“It's surprising what info you can find on the internet. ”
Hmmm... I see what you mean but surely this is only possible if you have a strange name? I mean it would be near impossible to pinpoint a “Mr John Brown” but easy to find a “Mr Zygote Bin Laden” if you catch my drift.
Nailit ive always been interested in the paranormal, the mysterious and the unexplained so it would be interesting to hear about your first hand experience.
Btw, does your friend have an “out there” name who can easily be identified and searched for? Is it that easy for strangers to get hold of deep personal records?
Hmmm... I see what you mean but surely this is only possible if you have a strange name? I mean it would be near impossible to pinpoint a “Mr John Brown” but easy to find a “Mr Zygote Bin Laden” if you catch my drift.
Nailit ive always been interested in the paranormal, the mysterious and the unexplained so it would be interesting to hear about your first hand experience.
Btw, does your friend have an “out there” name who can easily be identified and searched for? Is it that easy for strangers to get hold of deep personal records?
Many years ago, my partner at the time and I had a reading by a psychic who lived nearby. I had agreed to do some work for her and, as was customary in the culture of the day, she exchanged her skills.
I was astounded by what we were told. There was simply no way she could have known about the things and were well beyond lucky guesses, cleverly extracted information or vague stories that were forced to fit the events. Some were of future events that I didn't know were coming.
My father had visited a psychic in the early 1960s and the stories were legendary in my family. Despite my mother having had a miscarriage and being told by doctors that she would bear no more children, the psychic insisted there would be two more children and was correct.
The standout was the warning she gave, asking my father to tell his brother-in-law to "watch out for his eyes". My father passed on the message. Not long after, my uncle sustained third degree burns on his arms when a confectionery machine full of melted sugar exploded. He said his first thought was of the warning about his eyes which saved him from far worse burns.
The psychic was even approached by police looking to solve a case of a missing person after an accident. She told them to "look up". They found the body of the missing driver stuck high up in a tree.
On a similar vein, my wife experienced a dreadful case of six teenage boys playing with a Ouija board. They were told that five of them would soon be dead. The first died unexpectedly after playing football, the second stepped of a moving bus and hit a lamp post, my wife's fiance was killed when a car turned across in front of his motorcycle. Another turned his bike on the wrong side of a traffic island and collided head on with a bus. The last died at his own hands because he could not bear wondering if it was to be him or the other boy.
On the other hand, the vast majority of "mediums" are completely fake.
I was astounded by what we were told. There was simply no way she could have known about the things and were well beyond lucky guesses, cleverly extracted information or vague stories that were forced to fit the events. Some were of future events that I didn't know were coming.
My father had visited a psychic in the early 1960s and the stories were legendary in my family. Despite my mother having had a miscarriage and being told by doctors that she would bear no more children, the psychic insisted there would be two more children and was correct.
The standout was the warning she gave, asking my father to tell his brother-in-law to "watch out for his eyes". My father passed on the message. Not long after, my uncle sustained third degree burns on his arms when a confectionery machine full of melted sugar exploded. He said his first thought was of the warning about his eyes which saved him from far worse burns.
The psychic was even approached by police looking to solve a case of a missing person after an accident. She told them to "look up". They found the body of the missing driver stuck high up in a tree.
On a similar vein, my wife experienced a dreadful case of six teenage boys playing with a Ouija board. They were told that five of them would soon be dead. The first died unexpectedly after playing football, the second stepped of a moving bus and hit a lamp post, my wife's fiance was killed when a car turned across in front of his motorcycle. Another turned his bike on the wrong side of a traffic island and collided head on with a bus. The last died at his own hands because he could not bear wondering if it was to be him or the other boy.
On the other hand, the vast majority of "mediums" are completely fake.
Jim, //Science has a tendency to stick stubbornly to what it knows, or thinks it knows, until it has no option but to let go in the face of overwhelming evidence. Whether that's a weakness or a strength is a matter of opinion//
A weakness, in my opinion. Enquiring minds progress knowledge. Something I read – Christopher Hitchins I think – sums it up perfectly. He said something like ‘It’s not the answers you get that are important, but the questions you ask’.
A weakness, in my opinion. Enquiring minds progress knowledge. Something I read – Christopher Hitchins I think – sums it up perfectly. He said something like ‘It’s not the answers you get that are important, but the questions you ask’.
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