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Why The Abrahamic God?
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Of all the alleged creator Gods imagined by man (a couple of thousand at least), why do you (if you're religious) opt for the Abrahamic God in particular?
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Hi Naomi
Although I am not religious, I spent a long time in my early 20s looking around religion, theology, philosophy for answers to the questions around spirituality.
None of the Western philosophies appealed, because they all refuse clearly to admit that Faith in the Abrahamic tradition is believing in something beyond yourself, *against all rational justification*.
The Buddhist tradition accepts this, and Zen Buddhism in particular emphasises it, specifically requiring devotees to reject rationality through koans and other exercises.
That seems to me to be the most honest position of all the systems of belief I came across.
If I had to select a belief system in the Western tradition, I'd probably have gone for pre-Christian paganism. I liked that because it is primarily an individual pursuit, rather than a system of organised religiosity.
All three main Abrahamic traditions require a priesthood. Those individuals exert power and influence over their followers. It seems to me that those priests (Imams, Rabbi, Bishops and others) intervene in the personal experience of God and there is the potential to inject a level of political ambition into the pure message of their respective Gods.
It seems to me that this strong potential for political intervention pollutes the pure message of their respective Gods
Again, this is a personal view. I don't especially want to assert that I am right and anyone else is wrong.
Although I am not religious, I spent a long time in my early 20s looking around religion, theology, philosophy for answers to the questions around spirituality.
None of the Western philosophies appealed, because they all refuse clearly to admit that Faith in the Abrahamic tradition is believing in something beyond yourself, *against all rational justification*.
The Buddhist tradition accepts this, and Zen Buddhism in particular emphasises it, specifically requiring devotees to reject rationality through koans and other exercises.
That seems to me to be the most honest position of all the systems of belief I came across.
If I had to select a belief system in the Western tradition, I'd probably have gone for pre-Christian paganism. I liked that because it is primarily an individual pursuit, rather than a system of organised religiosity.
All three main Abrahamic traditions require a priesthood. Those individuals exert power and influence over their followers. It seems to me that those priests (Imams, Rabbi, Bishops and others) intervene in the personal experience of God and there is the potential to inject a level of political ambition into the pure message of their respective Gods.
It seems to me that this strong potential for political intervention pollutes the pure message of their respective Gods
Again, this is a personal view. I don't especially want to assert that I am right and anyone else is wrong.
// If I had to select a belief system in the Western tradition, I'd probably have gone for pre-Christian paganism. I liked that because it is primarily an individual pursuit, rather than a system of organised religiosity. //
Yes, and as far as I understand it, it's about reverence for real things. The earth, the sun, nature, birth, sex, death, creation, the cycle of the seasons. Things that actually exist and which sustain us rather than imaginary beings that demand our obedience and insist that we wear a silly hat on Fridays.
Yes, and as far as I understand it, it's about reverence for real things. The earth, the sun, nature, birth, sex, death, creation, the cycle of the seasons. Things that actually exist and which sustain us rather than imaginary beings that demand our obedience and insist that we wear a silly hat on Fridays.
The question is a little paradoxical- clearly if the person believes in a God they will not believe that God is the product of man's imagination.
On a personal note, I do not believe in a God who is the product of man's imagination. I believe in a God who is the creator of man. I don't however, feel the need to justify my selection of God any more than God has to justify his selection of me or you.
I could tell you that my faith in God (yes, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob- the God of the Bible) is founded on Holy Scripture, but quoting this would be pointless, as I believe you may have already decided that the Bible to be merely the imagination of man.
On a personal note, I do not believe in a God who is the product of man's imagination. I believe in a God who is the creator of man. I don't however, feel the need to justify my selection of God any more than God has to justify his selection of me or you.
I could tell you that my faith in God (yes, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob- the God of the Bible) is founded on Holy Scripture, but quoting this would be pointless, as I believe you may have already decided that the Bible to be merely the imagination of man.
Exactly Ludwig and Kidas, Paganism is an individual path where your experiences can be made manifest into a spirituality that is healing, soothing and empowering, whilst at the same time instilling a reverence for life, kindness and nurturing. It's not the colossal, controlling of the masses power trip that is the Abramic religions, which is probably why my mother (Jewish) and father (Catholic) decided it was a path for them and brought us up likewise. All of our family treat our Paganism very differently because it gives each person a different calling.
Hazi-Hammenuhoth, //The question is a little paradoxical- clearly if the person believes in a God they will not believe that God is the product of man's imagination.//
But they believe that every other god is a product of man’s imagination. Why not this one?
//my faith in God (yes, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob- the God of the Bible) is founded on Holy Scripture//
Which brings me to my point. A Christian posting on another thread denied emphatically that the Bible condemns non-believers to death … but it does. Additionally, that God is reputed among Christians to be omnipotent, but scripture tells us differently, so I question just how much ‘scripture’ Christians actually know.
//I believe you may have already decided that the Bible to be merely the imagination of man.//
You’re mistaken. The popular myth of God’s loving, just, and compassionate nature very clearly emanates from the imagination of man but I happen to think that the bible contains a wealth of history.
But they believe that every other god is a product of man’s imagination. Why not this one?
//my faith in God (yes, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob- the God of the Bible) is founded on Holy Scripture//
Which brings me to my point. A Christian posting on another thread denied emphatically that the Bible condemns non-believers to death … but it does. Additionally, that God is reputed among Christians to be omnipotent, but scripture tells us differently, so I question just how much ‘scripture’ Christians actually know.
//I believe you may have already decided that the Bible to be merely the imagination of man.//
You’re mistaken. The popular myth of God’s loving, just, and compassionate nature very clearly emanates from the imagination of man but I happen to think that the bible contains a wealth of history.
half naked men round a fire wondering at the stars above, where is their place in the world as they knew it, (he) god must be a man like us and think men thoughts..limited, so lets make a good as we imagine our god to be, again men thoughts and only men thoughts cause we be smart. throw a bone into the stars...
Hi Naomi
Firstly, I can only give my personal responses but hopefully they may help you to understand my own position a little clearer.
/But they believe that every other god is a product of man’s imagination. Why not this one?/ Because clearly they have personal experience with their God which leads them to trust in the Bible. I believe the Bible is clear there is only one true God, as Paul demonstrated in his address at Athens.
/A Christian posting on another thread denied emphatically that the Bible condemns non-believers to death … but it does./ I couldn't comment on the experience or belief of another Christian. Suffice to say, when Paul was in Philippi he saved his jailor from committing suicide by pointing him to belief in Jesus. Men may condemn themselves by their choices and actions, but that is not God's desire, who would have all men to be saved.
/Additionally, that God is reputed among Christians to be omnipotent, but scripture tells us differently, so I question just how much ‘scripture’ Christians actually know./ God is certainly described in different ways throughout the Bible, sometimes as a "consuming fire" or as "rich in mercy". But God is clearly both these things. A fair father may sometimes appear to his children as strict at times or loving, or caring or firm. This is not inconsistency.
/The popular myth of God’s loving, just, and compassionate nature very clearly emanates from the imagination of man/ I disagree. I would say it very clearly isn't. Man's imagination can encompass a harsh and unforgiving God, but it is difficult to apprehend His undeserved mercy, grace and love which is boundless and towards the sinner. The parable of the younger son in Luke 15 is an example of this and has certainly been my experience.
/but I happen to think that the bible contains a wealth of history./ It sure does, and what wealth!
Firstly, I can only give my personal responses but hopefully they may help you to understand my own position a little clearer.
/But they believe that every other god is a product of man’s imagination. Why not this one?/ Because clearly they have personal experience with their God which leads them to trust in the Bible. I believe the Bible is clear there is only one true God, as Paul demonstrated in his address at Athens.
/A Christian posting on another thread denied emphatically that the Bible condemns non-believers to death … but it does./ I couldn't comment on the experience or belief of another Christian. Suffice to say, when Paul was in Philippi he saved his jailor from committing suicide by pointing him to belief in Jesus. Men may condemn themselves by their choices and actions, but that is not God's desire, who would have all men to be saved.
/Additionally, that God is reputed among Christians to be omnipotent, but scripture tells us differently, so I question just how much ‘scripture’ Christians actually know./ God is certainly described in different ways throughout the Bible, sometimes as a "consuming fire" or as "rich in mercy". But God is clearly both these things. A fair father may sometimes appear to his children as strict at times or loving, or caring or firm. This is not inconsistency.
/The popular myth of God’s loving, just, and compassionate nature very clearly emanates from the imagination of man/ I disagree. I would say it very clearly isn't. Man's imagination can encompass a harsh and unforgiving God, but it is difficult to apprehend His undeserved mercy, grace and love which is boundless and towards the sinner. The parable of the younger son in Luke 15 is an example of this and has certainly been my experience.
/but I happen to think that the bible contains a wealth of history./ It sure does, and what wealth!
Hazi-Hammenuhoth, //I couldn't comment on the …. belief of another Christian.//
If you know the scriptures as you say you do, why not? Your fellow Christian was wrong. Paul’s efforts don’t detract from the fact that your God condemns non-believers to death. Why won't you concede that?
//’God's desire, who would have all men to be saved.//
He makes the rules and he’s omnipotent. The choice is, therefore, his alone.
//A fair father may sometimes appear to his children as strict at times or loving, or caring or firm.//
You’re not a child.
//hopefully they may help you to understand my own position a little clearer.//
Oh, I understand your position very well. Religion renders your intellect incapable of critical objectivity.
If you know the scriptures as you say you do, why not? Your fellow Christian was wrong. Paul’s efforts don’t detract from the fact that your God condemns non-believers to death. Why won't you concede that?
//’God's desire, who would have all men to be saved.//
He makes the rules and he’s omnipotent. The choice is, therefore, his alone.
//A fair father may sometimes appear to his children as strict at times or loving, or caring or firm.//
You’re not a child.
//hopefully they may help you to understand my own position a little clearer.//
Oh, I understand your position very well. Religion renders your intellect incapable of critical objectivity.
Personally, the evidence in the bible convinces me. The prophecies in the bible convince me that the bible is true. Having come to the point of submission, then I experienced the fellowship of God, a true experience through prayer, not something to be learned in a book, or sampled through mere curiosity. God commits to us when we commit to Him.
Author Hazi-Hammenuhoth, //I
Naomi- just to respond to your questions:
/If you know the scriptures as you say you do, why not? Your fellow Christian was wrong./ I simply havent read the post and don't presume to answer for others. Ask him or her the question and maybe they will respond.
/Paul’s efforts don’t detract from the fact that your God condemns non-believers to death. Why won't you concede that?/ Paul's actions were displaying God's mercy and desire to save. God is giving all men a choice whether to accept the terms of the Gospel, or not. If you choose to reject His offer of full and free forgiveness on the basis of faith in Christ, you are choosing to enter an eternity without Christ. God is not condemning anyone, but rather "commending His love to us, in that we being still sinners, Christ has died for us."
//’God's desire, who would have all men to be saved.//
/He makes the rules and he’s omnipotent. The choice is, therefore, his alone./ No, you and I have a choice. Accept God, or reject Him.
/Oh, I understand your position very well. Religion renders your intellect incapable of critical objectivity./ Your opinion is noted.
Naomi- just to respond to your questions:
/If you know the scriptures as you say you do, why not? Your fellow Christian was wrong./ I simply havent read the post and don't presume to answer for others. Ask him or her the question and maybe they will respond.
/Paul’s efforts don’t detract from the fact that your God condemns non-believers to death. Why won't you concede that?/ Paul's actions were displaying God's mercy and desire to save. God is giving all men a choice whether to accept the terms of the Gospel, or not. If you choose to reject His offer of full and free forgiveness on the basis of faith in Christ, you are choosing to enter an eternity without Christ. God is not condemning anyone, but rather "commending His love to us, in that we being still sinners, Christ has died for us."
//’God's desire, who would have all men to be saved.//
/He makes the rules and he’s omnipotent. The choice is, therefore, his alone./ No, you and I have a choice. Accept God, or reject Him.
/Oh, I understand your position very well. Religion renders your intellect incapable of critical objectivity./ Your opinion is noted.
Theland, //Dear me Nims, that was a bit rude to Hazi don't you think?//
No I don’t. Religion does render people incapable of critical objectivity. You, for example, make claims that, if you read your bible objectively, you would acknowledge simply aren’t accurate. Religion messes with the mind. You're lying to yourself.
Hazi-Hammenuhoth, ^that to you too.
No I don’t. Religion does render people incapable of critical objectivity. You, for example, make claims that, if you read your bible objectively, you would acknowledge simply aren’t accurate. Religion messes with the mind. You're lying to yourself.
Hazi-Hammenuhoth, ^that to you too.
Dear Naomi
Perhaps your superior attitude, evidenced in your blanket statements and temporary ego-trip of scathing dismissal of Christianity makes you feel important and wise? And, how interesting that, for you, "critical objectivity" seems to be the be-all-and-end-all. I hope it gives you the satisfaction and peace that accepting Christ has given me and thousands of others.
Perhaps your superior attitude, evidenced in your blanket statements and temporary ego-trip of scathing dismissal of Christianity makes you feel important and wise? And, how interesting that, for you, "critical objectivity" seems to be the be-all-and-end-all. I hope it gives you the satisfaction and peace that accepting Christ has given me and thousands of others.
That may be true Theland, and it's a privelege, but my own experience is that God also loves to reach out to seemingly impossible situations and is prepared to reason with mortals. He says, doesn't he, in Isaiah 1, "Come now, and let us reason together..."
If anyone has a genuine question, God would not deny that or fail to provide an answer, even if it's not one we wish to hear. I may be wrong, as I very often am, but perhaps Naomi is genuinely seeking the truth. In which case, I will try and help if I can.
If anyone has a genuine question, God would not deny that or fail to provide an answer, even if it's not one we wish to hear. I may be wrong, as I very often am, but perhaps Naomi is genuinely seeking the truth. In which case, I will try and help if I can.
