For Theland - Israel

[naomi24]

//It was written.
It happened.//

But the question is why did it happen?

[spathiphyllum]

Why is the biggest question of all

[naomi24]

Well, it happened because it was written.

Firstly, the Jews never forgot that they, and they alone, were their God’s chosen people and that the land was promised to them – and they never let anyone else forget it either.

To save me the effort, I’ve hooked this bit from Wiki:

//.A Jewish national movement, Zionism, emerged in the late-19th century (partially in response to growing anti-Semitism), as part of which Aliyah (Jewish immigration) increased. During World War I, the British government publicly committed to create a Jewish National Home and was granted a Mandate to rule Palestine by the League of Nations for this purpose.//

Soooo ….. the bottom line is because the Jews never forgot and never allowed the world to forget, and eventually formed an organisation intent on fulfilling their ambition – an organisation that wasn’t averse to blowing people up – they eventually achieved their aim.

This is not the only prophecy to have been ‘fulfilled’ by the determination of men. The birth of Jesus in Bethlehem and his chosen mode of transport into Jerusalem were also ‘written’ long before the event. Curious, eh? Not really. Entwining elements of other men’s stories into new tales isn’t beyond the ability of a well-informed writer. But if we’re talking about the fulfilment of prophecy - genuine prophecy - curious is that which emanated from Jesus’ own lips, foretelling the end of times within the disciples’ lifetime. What happened to that one? And I’m still waiting for Egypt to be laid waste and for the Nile to run dry. Not within the bounds of human endeavour to achieve perhaps? That would take a miracle.

I trust that answers your incessantly-repeated question once and for all.

[douglas9401]

"I trust that answers your incessantly-repeated question once and for all."

Thanks for the smiles. Theland makes the Jews seem half-hearted. :-)

[agchristie]

Naomi has clarified the position.Yay!

(I know that because it was written and it has happened! o:))

[naomi24]

:o)

[Theland]

It was written and it happened.
How did it happen?
The answer is that God kept His promise, and it was brought about by events that were ordained by God to achieve His purpose.
God can and does motivate mere men to act in a way that progresses His goals.
Many many events converged at the right time and brought about the fulfillment of the prophecy.
If you are looking for an army of visible marching Angels, and pillars of fire and lightning, look elsewhere.
Even Hitlers holocaust was a contributory factor, and the Russian pogroms, and the centuries of Jewish persecution, (the list goes on and on), as well as United Nations votes.
Naomi, you are absolutely correct for listing some of the relevant factors, but you are mistaken in not attributing to God, the Hand that moved the events using mankind as His agency.

[nailit]

//the Hand that moved the events using mankind as His agency.//
Really think about what you are suggesting here Theland. If God uses mankind 'as his agency' Then men dont have free will because whatever they do, it is because God so desires it. If you're a Calvinist then it really isnt a problem for you (as horrible as Calvinist doctrine is) but otherwise you cant say that man has freewill and God's will be done in the same breath.

[agchristie]

Theland - //Naomi, you are absolutely correct for listing some of the relevant factors//

I was jumping for joy at this point and then I saw that next word 'but'. (sigh)

[naomi24]

Theland, //God can and does motivate mere men to act in a way that progresses His goals.//

The Holocaust, the Russian Pogroms, the centuries of persecution of the Jews? They were the things that God did to motivate men? Seriously?

Why bother asking me when you know before you start you’re going to dismiss a perfectly rational answer in favour of a load of nonsensical guff? God did sweet FA.

Ag, that made me laugh.

[agchristie]

Naomi, and I've just laughed at: 'God did sweet FA'

Classic!!

[Theland]

Yes we have free will, but God will give us over to a strong delusion if we persist in following a delusion without any effort to search fo God.
You done want to know Him?
Fair enough, God will give you what you want.

[naomi24]

Haha!

[naomi24]

^That to ag.

Theland, you're preaching again.

[nailit]

//The Holocaust, the Russian Pogroms, the centuries of persecution of the Jews? They were the things that God did to motivate men? Seriously?//

I didn't like to point that out to Theland in my post @ 17:46,....trying to break him in slowly...
It was no different in the Bible where God hardens pharaohs heart so that he could show off a bit with a bit of Exodus!...

[nailit]

//but God will give us over to a strong delusion//

The Bible states that God sends strong delusions to people.
It also states that God sends lying spirits to people.
That the heart is deceitful above all things.
That Satan can appear as an angel of light.

Given the above ^ how on earth can anyone know that they are right and not deceived in any way???
Its an impossibility!

[4candles]

"Given the above ^ how on earth can anyone know that they are right and not deceived in any way???
Its an impossibility!"

It's also a load of dingos' kidneys.

[nailit]

//It's also a load of dingos' kidneys//
That as well, but lets be a bit gracious here...its hard to admit that your lifelong belief system is flawed....

[nailit]

The fact is,
if you believe in the Bible, then you can no more know that you are deceived than the religious groups that you claim are deceived.
If you are decieved then by definition, you wouldnt know it, otherwise you wouldnt be decieved.
According to the Bible (as already stated) God sends lying spirits to decieve people, he sends strong delusions, the human heart is decietful, Satan appears as an angel of light, God himself hardens/softens peoples hearts.
So how the hell are we suppossed to be accountable?
Utter boolarks...

[Theland]

There are far too many people eminently qualified that would dismiss your arguments for atheism, than I could ever hope to emulate.

What you atheists lack is any explanations.

"We don't know," is simply not good enough, and should not satisfy you either.

[nailit]

"We don't know," is simply not good enough, and should not satisfy you either.

To admit that we don't know certain things is a far more honest and intelligent approach to life that simply saying that ''God did it dint he''

And by the way, it was *MY* god that did it!
Not one of the thousand of others....