Life After Death

[Atheist]

I'm just reading 'Homo Deus' by Yuval Noah Harari (having read his earlier book, 'Sapiens'). In chapter 1 he states that nowhere in the Old Testament is there any reference to life after death; god simply set out the rules of obedience to, and worship of, himself, if the people wished to to avoid plagues, famines etc. It made me think that Jesus came up with a good idea in postulating a world where the masses (slaves for the most part) would be able to look forward to something better, even though their life experience (plagues, famines etc) told them that life was rubbish. The Jews were subjugated to the Romans and didn't have much in the way of prospects, and so a fair number of them were attracted to Jesus' new outlook, where all the pain and injustice of this world would be set right by God.
I realise that the Egyptians had an idea of an afterlife, although I suspect that it was reserved for the aristos.
What do OT fans think of this idea?

[steg]

I’m quite sure, mainstream archeologists seem to be quite sure.
Ok none of us can prove it, but if you want to ignore the majority of religious history because there is no written documents from the time fair enough, but people back in Hunter gatherer days were religious. Ritualistic burial of bodies and grave goods is quite good evidence for that.

[Atheist]

Steg, I don't want to ignore religious history, I find it fascinating.
As for grave and body decoration after death, we have no idea whether or not that had anything to do with what we would call religion. If my wife died in those days, I would not have chucked her in a ditch, I would have placed her reverently somewhere safe from predators, and given her a favourite dress or make-up. When someone died it would be natural to continue to respect the body and treat it accordingly. When a conqueror kills an enemy and mutilates and defiles the corpse, it's not done because of a belief in an afterlife.

[steg]

If you were about in them days you wouldn’t be what you are today, You can only guess what you would do, your whole life experience would have been different , you could be a leading religious member of the Hunter gatherer religion maybe ;)

[Atheist]

Steg; I might well be, I'd certainly be interested in trying to make sense of life and death. But I doubt if I'd have the motivation to push myself as some kind of leader.

[fiveleaves]

Life after death can almost be taken as a given in the OT. At Jesus's time the Sadduccees were a Jewish group who appear not to have believed in the resurrection.
The disciples with Jesus at the Transfiguration had no problem thinking Moses and Elijah lived on.
Interestingly there is no mention of Hell as depicted in the NT in the OT although frequent references to the grave etc

[Atheist]

Fiveleaves, why can life after death be taken as a given in the OT, but hell cannot? I'm no bible expert, but I have the idea that the old god seemed to deal mainly with earthly punishments and rewards appropriate to the agrarian population who (in my view) wrote the OT - e.g. good/bad harvests, famines, plagues etc. He also seems to have had no sense of respect for animals; he put them under the rule of men to do what they wished with them, provided they didn't fornicate with them, and that they did save a share for god to receive as offerings.

[dannyk13]

Isn't life after death an oxymoron?

[Atheist]

Danny, yes, but that's a mere question of semantics and doesn't decide anything meaningful about the concept that believers have in mind.

[TrevorThePug]

Insofar as biblical clarity goes, psalm 49 pretty much mentions hell (pit) and being with god (afterlife).

Like all religious texts, you can read what you like into them to substantiate any point that suits your argument.

[Atheist]

Although I believe the NT is much more explicit; probably because it was put together by more sophisticated people like Paul.

[TrevorThePug]

Yes, David was a shepherd and Paul was a *checks notes*... tent maker.

[Atheist]

Trev. yes, Paul's trade was stitching, but he was more than that - he wrote letters to all and sundry and travelled widely in the middle east.

[idiosyncrasy]

//nowhere in the Old Testament is there any reference to life after death//
What about Ecc: 3 v 11 - He hath made everything beautiful in its time; also he hath set eternity in their heart.
Genesis 2 v 16 & 17 where God gives them every tree to eat from but then in v 17 he says: "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil though shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
Would this not indicate that if they had not eaten from the forbidden tree they would have lived and not died?
Job 14 v 14 "If a man die, shall he live again, All the days of my warfare would I wait, till my release should come.,"
Job obviously believes he will live again stating he will wait for his release - release from death.
That's what I found.

[Paigntonian]

Idiosync: Well done. The claim in Homo Deus is plain wrong.

[Atheist]

Idio and Paign; I think you're streching it a bit trying to use those bible quotes to support the ida that the OT mentions life after death. If the bible is so marvellous, why does it often seem to say things in a mysterious and ambiguous way?

[naomi24]

Jesus was a Jew so it’s no surprise that he adhered to the concept of life after death. Much of the Old Testament is ambiguous but I think the following verse is pretty clear.

//And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. // Daniel 12:2

Incidentally, I don’t think Jesus intended to introduce a new religion. Paul took it upon himself to do that - and with his own ideas. Jesus purpose, I believe, was something else entirely.

I’ve read Sapiens but have yet to read Homo Deus.

[davebro]

There IS life after death - just not yours.

[Old_Geezer]

I think that if a belief gave the downtrodden hope, that was a side benefit. The main issue is whether one's sentience could be destroyed by bodily death, or whether it was separate and fundamental to driving the body whilst in that form. Many have experiences that suggest bodily death may not be the end of an individual's existence, so conjecture on a place one might find themselves after, is a legitimate subject for discussion and belief regardless what other benefits resulted in the here & now. (Including easier control of the masses.)

[naomi24]

//Many have experiences that suggest bodily death may not be the end of an individual's existence//

Indeed, but why they automatically equate their experiences with religion and the supernatural remains a mystery to me.

[Theland]

Old Geezer is right to mention the importance of hope, the power of which can only be understood and relayed by those who have had everything else taken away, and their remaining strength is through hope.