Feminism. What does it mean in 2005?

[Drusilla]

I love to listen to my mother talk about her activist days in the Feminist movement of the 1970's.

She talks with passion about the struggles for equality in employment, the visibility of female role models, the question of abortion rights, the sexual abuse of women and the subsequent degrading treatment of the female victims by the authorities.

She despairs that financial equality is still a joke and that so many young women are only interested in the equal right to get wrecked and misbehave, while ignoring the 'wink-wink mysogyny' of the lad mags.

Her biggest fear is the growing power of the fundamentalist elements in the Christian religion, who she believes will slowly, but surely erode the rights gained by her generation and push women back into more traditional roles.

My question is this. Is my generation so wrapped up in the freedom to party that we are betraying the feminists of the 70's at the expense of our own daughters' generation?

[Drusilla]

I've just realised it's 2006. Talk about living in the past!

[Lonnie]

Feminism is one of those words that means different things to different people, to me, (and i'm getting ready to run for cover here, complete with armour and hard hat), it means the woman being the homemaker.

[Drusilla]

You have nothing to fear from me Lonnie. I think my Mum despairs of my limited activism. I started my own small business from home to give me more time with my daughters. It was my way of uniting my work with my love of parenting.

[Goodsoulette]

I think that the whole lad mag phenonmenom has come about again because it is excepted in 99 % of place in this country that women are equal. I worked in my earlier 20s in a predominently male industry and never once worried that my sex held me back or forwarded me in any way. I think therefore its ok to have half naked women in mens magazines because women arent just sex objects anymore (obviously this does not apply across the board). Even fashion recently has changed, its got sexier and shorter and more revealing again and i genuinely think if things were like they used to be then i wouldnt go out in high heels and a short skirt.

I was however horrified that a girl who works with my husband who considers herself a "lads girl" sent him a text which was a male chauvanistic joke. I think that encouraging this sort of so called humour is disrespectful to not just women in the 70s but the movements that came b4 them and girls and women today.

Suffragettes died to get us equal rights and it is something we should treat a little more preciously.

[waimarie]

I think you are right Drusilla but I think the cause is known as apathy. I have a similar reaction of despair when I see the turn out of voters at many elections of 30% or less. Over many hundreds of years our ancestors felt the franchise was important enough to go to prison and in some cases lay down their lives. I wonder what their feelings would be now if they could see the indifference of those who follow.

In saying that, at 70+ years of age there is no question in my mind that women are in a far better position than forty or fifty years ago. There is no reason why this should change for the worse as long as they persevere.

Forty or fifty years ago we thought the contraceptive pill would release women from the drudgery of unwanted pregnancy. It didn't happen. Surely this is further cause for despair when teenage pregnacies are at an all time high

Of course the sensible equality of the sexes has not been reached but that does not mean you should not keep plugging away to make further gains. Maybe one day we might have enthusiastic turn outs of 80%+ at General Elections, but I don't think I can wait that long for either event!!

It's only by doing nothing will you get nothing.

[Le Chat]

Women have come along way yes but women will never be equal in the true sense of the word unless they stop being the ones that have babies! In the households that I know of where both parents have full time working positions, it is ALWAYS the woman who arranges childcare, drops off and picks up, stays off whilst the children are ill, juggles household chores and generally does all the house work too...unless she pays for a cleaner!

You do of course have to define equality but if we assume it is monetary gains, then us women will never be there unless we can stop reproducing!

[Lonnie]

Vive la difference, Women can never be equal to men, and men can never be equal to women, we should compliment each others qualities, but never take over the roles of the other, Thats in an ideal world, but then, i'm a Dinosaur that mentally, still lives in the fifties and early sixties.

[shaneystar2]

Lonnie..I grew up in the fifties and sixties and most certainly do not class myself as a dinosaur and neither should you.
Women do not have to be chained to the oven by their apron strings if they do not wish to be.It is inherent in most women to make a home and have children. But these days we have a choice which is more than women of my Mothers generation had.
We had the work ethic where we realised that we could make our way in the world without the need of a man to support us if we so wished.

No we do not live in an ideal world and I for one am pleased to see that more men take an interest in parenting and household chores and also that women can hold their own in an often male dominated environment in the workplace.
As for the church ..well they would attack feminist ideologies ..they are the biggest dinosaurs.They seem to think that women should have no other vocation than motherhood and that the breakdown in society is caused by young people with materialistic ideals rather than getting on with procreation.
Lonnie you say that women can never be equal to men, and men can never be equal to women..So how come I always have to put the rubbish out !!!

[Goodsoulette]

ooohhh.... Le Chat, my husband is the house husband. We did have a baby in August so I am off for a year, but I will return full time and mu hubby will be house husband full time once more. I am still better at chores than he is but we are not the only family i know that work this way.

[gary baldy]

Our family is goodsoulette!
I am not a feminist and thankfully my wife isnt either - in our relationship this is acceptable because i am the house husband and my wife has a very successful career as well as a family so there is no contradiction.
There is still tension because i am useless at chores!
Despite the relatively unusual domestic / childcare situation i would say we have a very traditional relationship (emotionally).
I dont want to get into the lads mag thing - its too complex- but i will say that i think it arose as a reaction to the pendulum swinging too far, too quickly for many men.
I personally relish the distinctions between the sexes but you feminists out there, just be patient, you will certainly become the dominant sex. Not very soon but it will come.

[noxlumos]

Our house consiste of myself and my wife and the kids and as we are both self employed (she's an actres/director and I'm a propety developer amongst other things) we share as equally as possible the household things. I do most of the cooking because she's a terrible cook but apart from that we share everything else and it works just fine for us. My wife is very secure in her femininity but also as any man's equal and doesn't object to lads mags as she feels that the women in them are not being denegrated in any way or are anyone's victims. The whole point is surely that sex and women's bodies are their own to do as they please with and if they wish to pose naked then that's their perogative.

One thing that does bother me slightly is that there is a lot of anger against women from men of a certain age who do apear to feel threatened, probably because of their inability to adjust to the loss of their own very defined traditional roles, so I think a repercussion of the success of the women's movement has been an increase in violence and abuse towards women from men who find they have no natural place in this adjusted society.I imagine that this will start to wane as it becomes more the norm for women to have positions of power, at least I hope so.

I don't think this is ultimate party generation for either women or men so no I think no-one is being betrayed, I think it's a testimony to the security of position that girls now feel that they don't really think about it being any other way.A big success story for feminism.

[Drusilla]

Hi noxlumos, my problem with lad mag culture is my belief it's the same old mysogyny, but wrapped in ironic humour which dismisses concerns like mine with the patronising chant, 'You don't get it!'
I'm all for women being sexually liberated and choosing as many partners as they feel comfortable with, but the array of lad's mags and soft porn on display in my local newsagents still represent a one sided and cheap approach to sexual display. Where are the mags with full frontal, naked men being displayed?
Men will no doubt argue that women are less interested in such visual images, but is it possible that such images are not readily available because men would not feel comfortable at such an array of comparisons.

[Goodsoulette]

^ ^ ^ fair pint i hadnt thought about male insecurity on this subject before

[AliFlump]

I agree with Drusilla about the lads mags, the shelves of my newsagents are the same and how the Sport can be on the same row as the Guardian is beyond me!

I often feel that male insecurity is why we do not have such magazines, while women have become more equal in some respects i still think that a chauvanistic opinion is still kept by some men and that is why we still have these magazines.

Is it not true that since such magazines have come into production, there has been more pressure on women to have the perfect body? I dont think men would like magazines with half naked men on the front for fear of feeing inferior, yet it is ok for the women.

[noxlumos]

As a man I have to say that it doesn't really bother me if my wife admires another man naked or not, I don't think it would bother the majority of men, but the ones it would bother do not view women as equals anyway and there will always be a small sector of society that is threatened by the opposite sex and thousands of years of equality won't change that.

I think mysoginism is not linked in any way to lad mags or pornography in general ( excluding really violent domination/forced sex sites etc that exist) I think we often confuse this because men can use rape as almost the ultimate weapon to hurt and degrade a woman, and rape is nothing to do with sex, it is to do with hate, sex is just a by product of that almost.If we want to lessen violent crime towards women and mysogynism in general I think the thing we need to concentrate on is boys perceptions whilst at a very young age.Schools are still dreadful at this and will even now often split classes into two, boys vs girls and that's a no win situation, as if the girls win it fosters resentment and if the boys win it gives them a feeling of domination. It's very small and very subtle but it's there and it sets dangerous seeds which coupled with financial disadvantage, anger and hurt can explode into violent mysogynism later on.

[sponsmith]

Christ! What a boring question!