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opinions please...
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...does religion cause more harm in the world than good?
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A definition of religion would go along way in providing a concise answer to this question but for the most part religious dogma is an attempt to circumvent or rewrite reality to conform to ones wishes and desires. Reality does not respond to our feelings and desires. In order to change reality for the better it must first be understood. We must first conform to the absolute of reality to be able to see what must be done and find the will to do what is required to fulfill rational wishes and desires that serve our best interests.
Some believe that �recreational� use of religion can be helpful in times of distress or to alleviate insecurity or fear. I find this a dangerous alternative to dealing with the causes of these in that it does nothing to alter the course of events, the cause and effect relationships that lead to the problem in the first place. That we need and lack an effective and complete philosophical framework for solving problems does not justify turning to a false alternative or resigning to a blind acceptance of the way things are.
This is a great question and I look forward to the analyzing and perhaps responding to the discussions this will invoke when time permits.
Some believe that �recreational� use of religion can be helpful in times of distress or to alleviate insecurity or fear. I find this a dangerous alternative to dealing with the causes of these in that it does nothing to alter the course of events, the cause and effect relationships that lead to the problem in the first place. That we need and lack an effective and complete philosophical framework for solving problems does not justify turning to a false alternative or resigning to a blind acceptance of the way things are.
This is a great question and I look forward to the analyzing and perhaps responding to the discussions this will invoke when time permits.
No it�s human nature to cause harm in the world regardless of religious beliefs. Whilst it is of course true that most of the major religions have had �followers� who have stomped and paraded around the world in seek of power, wealth and territory under the guise of �religion� for centuries. It is equally true that many many people who believe and belong wouldn�t hurt a fly, are happy to hug a tree, live ecologically and yet still lead moral, loving, productive and fulfilling lives.
One would have to ask this question of the thousands of people in poor, undeveloped countries that receive aid, hospitalization, schooling, food... and love from the missionaries and other church sponsored charities. I know that it's the fanatics and ferverent militants of any 'religion' that get the news headlines, but it's the dedicated, caring and selfless 'doers of the Word' that are daily making a difference that one never hears about.
I'll hear the argument that it's not only faith based charities that do this kind of work, but, time after time, statistics show that the vast majority, at least originating from the U.S. are faith based.
We have supported a young couple in Africa for 15 years. The husband teaches school and the wife is a nurse. All three of their children were born in Africa. they make a </>real difference and yet, you would never hear of them...
Most of the charity hospitals, again at least here in the U.S., are faith based.
As usual, mibn2cweus overlooks the huge numbers of well educated scientists, professionals and other credentialed peer reviewed inquirers of knowledge that freely and cheerfully profess faith in God the Creator of the Judaeo-Christian tradition. i don't quite understand how all of these as well as the ordinary, everyday believer can be as dimished intellectually as inferred herein...
I'll hear the argument that it's not only faith based charities that do this kind of work, but, time after time, statistics show that the vast majority, at least originating from the U.S. are faith based.
We have supported a young couple in Africa for 15 years. The husband teaches school and the wife is a nurse. All three of their children were born in Africa. they make a </>real difference and yet, you would never hear of them...
Most of the charity hospitals, again at least here in the U.S., are faith based.
As usual, mibn2cweus overlooks the huge numbers of well educated scientists, professionals and other credentialed peer reviewed inquirers of knowledge that freely and cheerfully profess faith in God the Creator of the Judaeo-Christian tradition. i don't quite understand how all of these as well as the ordinary, everyday believer can be as dimished intellectually as inferred herein...
Obviously there are lots of pros and cons around religion.
Being raised in a Roman Catholic environment, I have seen the benefits that religion can provide for some (particularly older) people. In a rapidly changing world, the church can provide a relatively unchanging sanctuary for those who struggle to cope with a society that is becoming evermore complex, and indeed, secular.
It can be a common ground on which people can form and reconcile relationships, especially in times of need and those types of things.
But are there any pros that are strong enough to stand up against cons such as: countless men, women and children being killed in the name of religion; people being driven from their homes; people living in fear of terrorist attacks by religious extremists.
I suppose the big question is: without religion, would there be a little more peace in the world, or would mankind just find other things to fight about in its place?
Being raised in a Roman Catholic environment, I have seen the benefits that religion can provide for some (particularly older) people. In a rapidly changing world, the church can provide a relatively unchanging sanctuary for those who struggle to cope with a society that is becoming evermore complex, and indeed, secular.
It can be a common ground on which people can form and reconcile relationships, especially in times of need and those types of things.
But are there any pros that are strong enough to stand up against cons such as: countless men, women and children being killed in the name of religion; people being driven from their homes; people living in fear of terrorist attacks by religious extremists.
I suppose the big question is: without religion, would there be a little more peace in the world, or would mankind just find other things to fight about in its place?
Religous people do good works but then as Clanad points out non-religous people do too - I'd suggest that these individuals would do good works regardless of whether or not they were religous.
The big crime is that religion holds back the intellectual development of Humanity.
Religion is a puveyor of easy answers to the big questions and doesn't like being told that it's wrong!
Coppernicus could not publish until he was dying, Galileo was imprisoned and even today in the US there are Biology teachers unable to teach evolution because of religion.
Let's not just blame Christianity though it's been a long time since the heady days when Islam preserved centuries of learning from European barbarism.
Religion offers a faustian bargain they do great work but demand your soul - if you don't have one of those that's OK just believe what they tell you and do what they say.
More harm than good? I guess that depends on what value you place on your freedom of thought.
The big crime is that religion holds back the intellectual development of Humanity.
Religion is a puveyor of easy answers to the big questions and doesn't like being told that it's wrong!
Coppernicus could not publish until he was dying, Galileo was imprisoned and even today in the US there are Biology teachers unable to teach evolution because of religion.
Let's not just blame Christianity though it's been a long time since the heady days when Islam preserved centuries of learning from European barbarism.
Religion offers a faustian bargain they do great work but demand your soul - if you don't have one of those that's OK just believe what they tell you and do what they say.
More harm than good? I guess that depends on what value you place on your freedom of thought.
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Obviously JTP you overlooked my previous response... I believe that I'm as intellectually as curious as the next person and, as previously mentioned, thousands of scientists, philosophers, and intellectuals of all stripes are believers. We've discussed this particular aspect before, but no one has ever provided an answer to that conondrum. Can it be that all of them, last man jack of them, are stunted in some way although they've demonstrated the art and science of thinking? Why does that remain a bastion of retreat when asked? It's somewhat like greendog's worn out argument about "countless men, women and children, etc..." when it's very easy to demonstrate that almost all genocidal wars have nothing to do with "religion". As I've stated at times, ad nauseum, ad infinitum in the past. Just look at this century... Pol Pot, Hitler, Mussolini, the African slaughter(s), WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam.... there were no or very little in the way of religious aspects to any of these. In my opinion...
Hang on a moment Clanad. I don't for a second think that one can quite disconnect religion from WWII. Don't forget that there are several issues surrounding the conduct of the Vatican during the Second World War, regarding the shelter of Nazis etc. Not to mention the religious and ethnic cleansing that took place during the holocaust. There were many senior officials within the US state department,the British War Office and Armed Forces who believed that the war was justified on the basis that Hitler and the Nazis were 'Godless'. If that doesn't suggest a religious reason then I don't know what does.
Let us not forget that Vietnam was, again, seen as a conflict between 'God-fearing' capitalists and atheistic Communists. The current 'War on Terror' (LOL) is yet another example of two opposing religious ideologies duking it out for control of the world. Whilst I wholly accept that there are many believers in many faiths who do a lot of good (my parents included), I'm afraid that I see religion as a means of control, particularly of women.
Let us not forget that Vietnam was, again, seen as a conflict between 'God-fearing' capitalists and atheistic Communists. The current 'War on Terror' (LOL) is yet another example of two opposing religious ideologies duking it out for control of the world. Whilst I wholly accept that there are many believers in many faiths who do a lot of good (my parents included), I'm afraid that I see religion as a means of control, particularly of women.
Zacsmaster and Octavius, I'm afraid you're wrong. Chambers Dictionary defines 'religion' as (quote)
"belief in, recognition of or an awakened sense of a higher unseen controlling power or powers with the emotion and morality connected with such" (my emboldening, of course).
How could antitheism - which specifically opposes any belief in such a "higher power" - ever be described as a religion, therefore?
I and many like me believe in the wonderful qualities of real ale but, no matter how many of us there eventually are, 'real ale' is never going to be a religion.
And there, I at least will call a halt.
"belief in, recognition of or an awakened sense of a higher unseen controlling power or powers with the emotion and morality connected with such" (my emboldening, of course).
How could antitheism - which specifically opposes any belief in such a "higher power" - ever be described as a religion, therefore?
I and many like me believe in the wonderful qualities of real ale but, no matter how many of us there eventually are, 'real ale' is never going to be a religion.
And there, I at least will call a halt.
Real Ale could be a religion, I myself follow it with religious fervour and make my annual pilgrimage to the Great British Beer Festival along with many other followers.
QM, of course if you lok hard enough there are various definitions of 'religion' such as....
"Religion is a system of social coherence based on a common group of beliefs or attitudes concerning an object, person, unseen being, or system of thought considered to be supernatural, sacred, divine or highest truth, and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions, and rituals associated with such belief or system of thought."
Beer. Amen.
QM, of course if you lok hard enough there are various definitions of 'religion' such as....
"Religion is a system of social coherence based on a common group of beliefs or attitudes concerning an object, person, unseen being, or system of thought considered to be supernatural, sacred, divine or highest truth, and the moral codes, practices, values, institutions, and rituals associated with such belief or system of thought."
Beer. Amen.
All right Clanad, I know it�s a worn out clich�, but I was rushing out the door when I wrote it. Plus I got a phone call when I was in the middle of writing the post and therefore it may have been a little different had I seen your post before submitting it.
I�m not trying to make some learned statement here. I am quite open minded in my views towards religion and I want to explore it more fully.
The only people with whom I can broach subject are religious people, and they tend to get offended very quickly when they think I�m questioning their beliefs.
From my personal experience, I have found that asking questions about my faith is just not the done thing. And this doesn�t sit well with me. If I was signing up for a mortgage, I would want to know exactly what I was getting into.
So relax Clanad. Be nice and I will listen to your views along with all the others and then hopefully I will have a wealth of information and opinions that will help me in my quest� you donkey!
(o: just kidding :o)
I�m not trying to make some learned statement here. I am quite open minded in my views towards religion and I want to explore it more fully.
The only people with whom I can broach subject are religious people, and they tend to get offended very quickly when they think I�m questioning their beliefs.
From my personal experience, I have found that asking questions about my faith is just not the done thing. And this doesn�t sit well with me. If I was signing up for a mortgage, I would want to know exactly what I was getting into.
So relax Clanad. Be nice and I will listen to your views along with all the others and then hopefully I will have a wealth of information and opinions that will help me in my quest� you donkey!
(o: just kidding :o)
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There is no question that religion provides a �moral� framework that guides the choices and actions of those who follow the tenets of their chosen or inherited religious beliefs. The problem is that �moral� dictums, many of which are not founded on sound moral principles, do not address the need to understand why something is either right or wrong in a given situation.
Simply abandoning religious moral principles does nothing to satisfy the requirement of a system of moral and ethical principles that provides the guidance needed for creatures that must make choices, the consequences of which are often a matter of life and death, not only for individuals making those decisions but in many cases for large populations affected by them as well. The need for such a system becomes more and more apparent with the exponential growth of technological advances that could not have been foreseen millennia ago when many of the current religious moral principles were first carved in stone.
The question that is becoming clearer day by day is, where is a valid system of moral percepts that serves both the best interest of individuals as well as humanity as a whole in an integrated fashion to be found. We are finding that alternatively, among the best of government institutions the answers are lacking and in many cases as wrong as wrong can be. With both religion and social institutions failing miserably where else are we to turn?
Simply abandoning religious moral principles does nothing to satisfy the requirement of a system of moral and ethical principles that provides the guidance needed for creatures that must make choices, the consequences of which are often a matter of life and death, not only for individuals making those decisions but in many cases for large populations affected by them as well. The need for such a system becomes more and more apparent with the exponential growth of technological advances that could not have been foreseen millennia ago when many of the current religious moral principles were first carved in stone.
The question that is becoming clearer day by day is, where is a valid system of moral percepts that serves both the best interest of individuals as well as humanity as a whole in an integrated fashion to be found. We are finding that alternatively, among the best of government institutions the answers are lacking and in many cases as wrong as wrong can be. With both religion and social institutions failing miserably where else are we to turn?
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