Justified Murder

[Theland]

If you ASHes, (c'mon Wizard, tell 'em what it means!), could convince me to become an ASH, then why should I not murder you and take your mobile phone? What moral restraint could possibly stop me? To what authority woulf you appeal to correct my waywardness?

[wizard69]

morning Theland,
as long as people object to been murdered, murder will continue to be morraly reprehensable, as long as people object to been mugged for their mobile, then mugging will be morraly reprehensable. It has nothing to do with god or religion

[Theland]

But I could say, " Why Not? WHY is it wrong?"

Off to bed now - too many 12 hour night shifts - catch you later.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Turn it around the other way, Theland. If a supernatural authority is required for people to behave decently - which is the essential point of your question - how come all non-religious people are not violent, lawless people? This is unquestionably the case.

Moreover, what percentage of murderers claim a religious faith? Is it really reasonable to say that a religious faith stops murderers?

As it is, it seems to me that your trotting out an oft-used argument against so-called ASHs without thinking through whether your contention can possibly be true.

All authority is ultimately underpinned with force, something no Christian could possibly disagree with given their god, and if self interest, ethics and inherant disposition are insufficient to stop you and you flout the laws that society has deemed necessary and are caught, you will be punished in the way the law decrees.

[Llamatron]

I doubt very much that our species would have made it this far if we didn't help each other out. Sure, nowadays you can get away with being a git but once upon a time if you didn't help out your tribe with the hunting and stuff you and your mates wouldn't have lasted long.

It's not difficult to figure out why we tend to be nice to each other and it doesn't require threats of fire and brimstone.

So Theland if it's not some evolved sense of community and empathy for others that stops you mugging old ladies and killing children what is it that restrains you?

As Waldo says, this is such an old and ill thought out argument against the godless. But I guess unquestioning faith in the faeries at the bottom of the garden does that to ones thought processes so it's to be expected. Well otherwise you might notice the absurdity of all.

[wizard69]

Theland...if the only thing that stops you behaving like a psychopath is religious belief, then I am deeply worried about you.

[naomi24]

Theland, to go along with Waldo's line, what makes you think that if you were an ASH you would you want to murder our Wiz and take his mobile phone? You know for a fact that most people, religious or not, are decent and behave decently towards their fellow man, so what is your explanation for that?

[Whickerman]

I give up.

ASH?

[WaldoMcFroog]

'Atheist Secular Humanists', Whickerman. It's not a term I'd use myself, not least because it seems somewhat tautological to describe an atheist as secular.

Still, I occasionally describe Christians as 'Jesus Fiddlers', so it's fair enough really.

[naomi24]

Just one more thought Theland. What kept you from murdering people and leading a life of crime before you found god?

[jake-the-peg]

To quote physicist Steve Weinberg:

In a world without gods good men would do good, and evil men would do evil, but for good men to do evil, that takes religion.

[Pippa68]

That is brilliant, JTP.

What have morals got to do with religion??? you can raise children to know the difference between right & wrong without religion.

I have manged it very well. 4 times over.

[Pippa68]

*managed* !!

[WaldoMcFroog]

Theland, this very morning I stopped to help a young paperboy who crashed his bike and injured himself. Fortunately, it wasn't too serious, though it didn't look terribly pretty and I was able to lend him my phone to call his parents and stay with him for a little while to ensure he was okay.

As a result of this, I was about half an hour late to work this morning. Now, I personally believe that most other people who were in a similar situation would have done the same thing but nevertheless, can you explain how this could possibly have happened given that I do not have any ultimate moral authority that would compel me to assist this child at my own (minor, but nevertheless real) detriment?

[Whickerman]

Theland - if you need further proof that religion has nothing to do with morals, or vice-versa, can i ask you to open your bible and read the parable of the Good Samaritan. I think that was told for exactly that reason?

[naomi24]

Whicker, excellent point.

[Llamatron]

I don't think Theland is looking any more.

[brionon]

Simple-Society evolved by people who were nice {ish} surviving . So that over the Centuries the 'Nice' Gene spread. Why did they survive ? Because the rest of the population got rid of the Anti-social types. Something we are no longer doing-we rely ,instead on the Law which is not working properly.

[EDDIE51]

I do not need a God to tell me it is wrong to hurt or injure another person.
I do not need a God to tell me it is wrong to steal another person's property.