can the christian religon....

[wizard69]

ever be reconciled to reason?

Reason tells me that dead carpenters dont come back to life.
Reason tells me that donkeys and snakes dont talk.
Reason tells me that voices dont come out of burning bushes.
Reason tells me that people dont live ridiculously long lives of hundreds of years.
Reason tells me that it is wrong to slaughter babies and to keep people in slavery and to commit numerous other atrocities that the bible sanctions (and christians ignore)

So, when christians tell me that my atheism is 'unreasonable' am I right to point out the obvious about their bible?

[mibn2cweus]

From what I can gather many Christians believe that faith is a valid alternative to reason, a belief that I find is not supported by any assertions that are any more reasonable than the facts you pointed out.

[brionon]

Wizard reason tells me you can do this:--

http://www.concentrationtest.com/de/manner/

[Lonnie]

Took me around five tries to get the right pot.

Anyways, wiz, As you know, i'm Jewish, but there are many parts of the Torah that reason tells me can't, or shouldn't be possible.

I think the same could be said for almost all religions.

[weeal]

wizard, that reminds me of all the arguments I used to have with my dad lol

[Theland]

Reason tells me that something, (our universe), cannot come out of nothing.

[chakka35]

Theland, it really is time that you stopped riding this hobbyhorse. As has been said before, none of us knows how the universe came about. To say that the universe 'came out of' your God (which is what you do say) explains nothing because, by the same rule, your God cannot have 'come out of nothing'. And whatever he came out of could not have 'come out of nothing' ... and so on ad infinitum. It is a sterile argument which merely multiplies the problem by infinity. Why do you keep repeating it?

[Theland]

I repeat it because I do not share your apparent belief that because we humans occupy the top position on this planet, we also have the mental capacity to know all things, given the opportunity.
I do not believe that our minds can ever grasp a truth such as eternity, God, origins, just as a pet goldfish cannot grasp the workings of a light switch.

[wizard69]

Theland...why do you suppose that humans occupy the "top" position on this planet? I'll tell you why, its because you have been indoctrinated by religion that says that all animals are under our dominion. It simply isn't so.
There are many micro-organisms that can kill you without a thought.
We are NOT top dog ....only your religion believes that.

[whiffey]

wizard69, you have a problem, and I am glad you have this problem, because maybe it will prod you to look inside yourself. Sorry to intrude on your spluttering intellectual superiority, but it will pay you to take a look at yourself.

[wizard69]

Errr...you actually got anything to say?

[Hyperion]

Reason tells me that you cant get something out of nothing.
Reason tells me that you need life to beget life.
Reason tells me order comes from chaos
Reason tells me that some bacteria can survive millions of years.
Reason tells me its wrong to kill and to enslave people - but why is it wrong, what gave you a moral concience?
Reason tells me that there is something greater than I am and I choose to call that something God.

[Theland]

Hyperion - The scientific explanation of life coming from dead material, they call it abiogenesis, is a one off, never to be repeated event, that we are expected to accept in faith.
Many clever scientists have spent a long time in laboratories trying to create life in a test tube, but all they have managed is is some materials like some amino acids, that are a necessary precursor to life, or integral part of a living organism.
But, we are to believe that abiogenesis occurred without the assistance of state of the art laboratories and teams of clever scientists to direct operations.
I don't buy into abiogenesis.

[chakka35]

Theland, your reply to me perfectly illustrates Wiz's constant complaint that you never address arguments put to you. I gave you good sound logic as to why saying "Nothing can come from nothing" leads you into an impossible, infinite series of prime-movers. Why don't you think about that and answer it?

And it is only human conceit that makes Man think that he is top dog (sorry!) on this planet. The most important organism by far is the bacterium, without which no other plant or animal life could exist.
If Earth suddenly became too hot or too cold for all other life, bacteria would still be there, and who knows what some of them will have evolved into after another few thousand million years.

[jake-the-peg]

What does reason tell you about electrons passing simultaneously through two slits? ;c)

[Aquagility]

Hyperion, I shared your concern as to where our moral conscience came from. I can only recommend Richard Dawkin's 'The God Delusion', for a reasoned explanation. Not a difficult read, and one which rang many, many bells for me.

[chakka35]

jake-the-peg, if you're thinking of the phenomenon I think you are then you mean quanta not electrons.

If so, then reason cannot yet explain that extraordinary effect, just as there were thousands of mysteries over the ages which reason could not explain but eventually did.

There are many thousands of mysteries which reason still cannot explain and maybe never will be able to. So what is your point?
Are you suggesting that there is some other discipline that can explain such things? Ask Theland's God, for example, for an explanation. I think you'll find that he keeps a discreet silence.

[jake-the-peg]

You can do "Young's Slit" with electrons too you know not just photons

I'm trying to get at what we mean by reason.

There are numerous physical effects which seem to defy Reason. Quantum entanglement is another.

So in one sense science has already moved beyond reason.There is reason in the scientific method but often not in the science. We work now in terms of observation and mathematics.

In some cases just mathematics. We are getting to a point where some theories can gain widespread acceptance with no observational evidence.

They gain belief because of their mathematical elegance I'm thinking particularly of things like string theory.

In this context there is a very fine line between a theoretician who believes in a theory and priest who believes in God.

The difference is that the Scientist is ready to revise his view should there be opposing evidence - unfortunately history is littered with those who've stepped over the line and refused to do so. Fred Hoyle or even Albert Einstein in quantum mechanics

[Theland]

The behaviour of sub atomic particles is bizarre, and as JTP says, some theories are purely mathematical, but are nevertheless accepted.
However, the further this knowledge is pursued, it seems to me, the more there is an underlying force / purpose, call it what you will, that at least in secular terms, verges on the religious, or maybe the philosophical. Are we now not getting to the point where it is impossible to widen our understanding, but simply appreciate the effects observed, not having an inkling of the cause?
Something similar is happening in prophecy / futurology, where too many correct predictions occur to be written off as coincidence, and the latest of these is the web bot as on the link.
The effect is there, with varying degrees of accuracy, but the cause is not apparent.

http://www.rense.com/general69/webbotrun806.ht m