Are doctors right to kow-tow to religion?

[chakka35]

Although I think all religious belief is absurd, I rarely get angry about it.
But I did this morning when I read about the 20-year-old mother who had just given birth to twins but refused the blood transfusion which would save her life because she was a Jehovah's Witness. Her equally demented husband agreed with her, leaving two innocent new-born babies with no mother.
Much as we might despair at the sheer irresponsibilty of this couple, the question is: should the doctors concerned have ignored the incomprehensible attitude of the parents and saved the mother anyway?
Or would their argument be that their job is to practice medicine not personal morality?

[naomi24]

Hello Chakka, I suppose doctors can only do what a patient allows them to do, so they really had no choice but to let her die. I read this report and it made me angry too. How could any mother - or father - choose this option? She was obviously so indoctrinated that commonsense had no hope of prevailing. I imagine in opting to die rather than receive a life-saving blood tranfusion, she believed her soul would be 'saved', but in my opinion she was completely and utterly selfish. It's a pity the father is also a Jehovah's Witness, since he will be rearing those two children and they'll probably end up as deluded as their parents.

[LazyGun]

You cannot just ignore the wishes of the adult concerned. To treat someone in the absence of their consent would constitute ABH/GBH under the law.
You have to ask yourself how you would feel if ,hypothetically speaking, you had a terminal illness and wished to just die rather than prolong the whole painful business with treatment,but the doctors ignored your wishes and treated you regardless.

Personally speaking, I find the views of the JW's regarding blood transfusion absurd, but if that is their sincere belief, then it is entirely up to them. On a more positive note, the beliefs of JWs about blood transfusion advanced the science noticeably, with developments in autotransfusion,the development of plasma expanders and synthetic blood substitutes as well as new surgical methods to reduce blood loss, and a significant reduction in unneccesary transfusions that were becoming too prevelant.

[brionon]

Good ol' Xtians wot ?

[naomi24]

I wonder if, as Wiz says, the father will be doing some soul searching? With people this obsessed by their beliefs, somehow I doubt it. He's probably surrounded by members of his church telling him that he and his wife made the right decision.

[Ice-Maiden]

I agree with you. What a terrible waste of life.

[LoftyLottie]

Similar interesting thread in 'News' today.

[4GS]

equally demented?
sheer irresponsibilty ?
incomprehensible attitude?

I take it you know this couple then chakka?
You have your views, other people have theirs, who's to say who is right and who is wrong?
I happen to think that people with no religious beliefs/ vote labour/like dogs are incomprehensble and demented, but that's my opinion.
So what? someones religious beliefs say that they cannot recieve a blood transfusion, then the Doctors have to respect that persons beliefs, end of, they are not allowed to force someone to have a procedure that goes against their wishes, it would be the same as me forcing you to believe in God, Jesus, et al

[chakka35]

OK,4GS, your answer to my question is 'yes', the answer that the majority have given, though with rather more reluctance than you have . It is a medical fact that doctors have to observe the wishes of adult patients, no matter what distressing consequences that may have to others. Fortunately, the law can step in when this mindlessness extends to JW parents forbidding blood transfusions for their children.
So my question is answered.

As for the rest, how can you think that it is merely a matter of "opinion" whether it is right deliberately to make two newborn children motherless when there is a simple alternative? And I think I am entitled to suggest than any new father is demented to wish such a thing on his children regardless of his reasons. Also it is fair to call such a cruel act irresponsible and incomprehensible.

Not to the likes of you, of course, because you are religious. You no doubt you see nothng wrong in the appalling behaviour of the Jewish/Christian god as described in the Old Testament.

Normal people do.

[4GS]

normal? explain please chakka

In my opinion I also think it's wrong for this lady to refuse a blood transfusion on the grounds of religious belief, however, that said I refuse to call the husband demented, misguided perhaps, but not demented.
Your rather polemic description of this gentleman who you do not know, beggars belief after the rational arguments you have in the past put forward in your defence of Athiesm, perhaps it's you who is demented?

[chakka35]

By 'normal' I mean grown-up people who don't believe in supernatural beings which do magical things and for whose existence there is not a scrap of evidence - like Santa Claus, fairies and cruel gods.

OK, I'll try to explain 'demented':

It has been said many times, and I think fairly, that religious belief in the ordinary person is a mild and harmless form of insanity - or irrationality, if you prefer.

But here we have a case where a religion has inspired a woman to commit suicide quite unnecessarily, without regard to the distress that that will cause her children in the years to come, and to inspire her husband to support her in that cruel act. That form of religiosity is plainly not harmless.

The dogma which has shaped her thinking is a far-fetched interpretation of a few verses in an old book , an interpretation that the original unknown writer could not possibly have had in mind about 3000 years ago. That the sacrifice of one life and the damaging of two others is based on something so flimsy and superficial shows that in this case the irrationality was not mild, but certainly worthy if the description 'demented'.

[Octavius]

Of course I agree with you chakka that these actions are based upon man-made interpretations of old text which most of us would find an unthinkable concept in our own lives, but you keep harping on about father Christmas, tooth fairies and many other �supernatural� or unexplained phenomena to tedium.

Is there really anything much that you do believe in? Apart from your own narrow minded one way though train? You must be a right barrel of laughs at parties and at Christmas. Some people want and need fantasy in their lives, we all dream and have dreams. For all your rationality and one-way-my-way logic preaching, we might as well live in grey boxes with no doors or windows. At least have the decency to accept that others see the world in a different way to you, and your way is not always the right and best way for everyone else.

I actually find your analogy that I may be �abnormal� or �demented� because I disagree with your beliefs quite offensive. So in the face of your belligerence I will just leave you to your own ramblings.

[chakka35]

Octavius, I am always amused when people suggest that because I don't believe in weird things, I don't 'believe in' anything and that my life is grey.

Well, if I interpret 'believe in' to mean 'appreciate' then here are a few of the things that I 'believe in':

Love, brotherhood, friendship, companionship, my family, my highly fulfilling work, music, poetry, literature, beauty in all its forms, humour, mathematics, logic, scientific reasoning, writing (professionally and recreationally), the wonders of evolution, the fascination of the origins of Christianity, good novels, Times crossword puzzles, the Rainbow charity quizzes, debate...

I'm sure there are lots more but that'll do.

I'm quite good at parties, as a matter of fact. At the Christmas party of one of the clubs I belong to I usually win the 'Oscar' for the best 'party piece'. Sorry to boast but you did ask.

I love my life, Octavius, and those around me.

[chakka35]

PS: I did not say, Octavius, that you are demented. I said that most religious belief is only a mild form of irrationality, but that when you are prepred to see a loved one die unnecessarily because of some half-baked and very silly superstition, then you are demented by any definition of the term. Whether you come into that category I simply don't know. I hope not.

[Dagman]

Hi all, no particular stance here, but what would have happened if she had accepted the transfusion? sorry for ignorance!

[chakka35]

She would probably have recovered and given her children a mother for many years.
She and her husband would probably brainwash those children into their loony cult but the children could eventually escape from this if they wished. There is nothing they can now do about their motherlessness.

[Dagman]

A sad sad waste of life. and in the name of what? Yep, religion! Obviously not on the same scale as this tragedy, the case of the sacred temple bull that Hindu monks in the uk were trying to keep despite it being diseased with TB. Their religion was overruled and the creature destroyed. So...... how is it that authorities can be so pathetic for one situation yet heavy handed and decisive in another? How can people do something like this to themselves. I am an agnostic and I will sit on the fence until i see anything for myself. I don't mean anyone to be upset but if family of the dead mother grieve and regret the decision I hope it causes an amendment to the rules they hold. Probably not though. Other forceful believers will see to that.

[naomi24]

Dagman Do you mean what did she believe would happen to her, from a religious point of view, if she had accepted a blood transfusion? There are one or two Jehovah's Witnesses on AB, so perhaps they'll be good enough to come along and tell us.

[Dagman]

Hi naomi24. I wondered, would she be alienated, disowned to the point of losing her family because of it. Would she burn in hell? The religious point of view would be interesting so we can see what it is she feared would happen. Isn't that what it is all about, fear? "If you have a transfusion you'll......" what? Isn't it some sort of psychological bullying? I don't know. Perhaps they will add to this post and enlighten us. I predict a silent response! Unless.......