Proving the existence of God

[naomi24]

I've been having a very interesting discussion with 123everton on another thread about ultimate 'truth', as opposed to faith or belief, and this question stems from that.

Can you imagine trying to 'prove', beyond doubt, in a court of law, the existence of your God? How would you go about it?

[WaldoMcFroog]

"Your research is outdated Waldo, If you are referring "tests" as TEST between your legs then they only store sperms, they do not produce."

I would seriously LOVE to see this research. Can you point me in the right direction?

"And again yes- Academic qualification does make difference If you are sick you would go to MBBS and not to Corgi Registered, unless you are boiler who learnt how to walk after EVOLUTION."

And yet, despite their qualifications, a whole load of scientists are apparently attesting to the truth of the provably false. Look, it's not a matter of faith how an embryo develops - we know. And bones do not appear and then get covered in flesh. Bones develop inside the flesh. This is not contentious science here. It's GCSE level, school child level science. If you can find any source to refute this, then bring it on. Let's see it.

"But when it comes to certain things then your qualification deserts you, and you have to rely on Faith, others wise as I said for someone who wants to feel the presence of God then he is within yourself (Now you would say you are a part of God). Because all you have to do just look around you. Because every creation has a creator."

That begs the question; of course a creation has a creator. And a non-created thing doesn't. The issue is whether what you're calling a creation actually is one.

"However if you want to use your intellect to find God. Then I am sure you would not find him as in the past people with utmost knowledge could not do that."

I'd like to see some credible evidence to evaluate. That'd be a start. Something that isn't just provably factually wrong writings by an extremely dead human being or a cognitive fallacy.

[WaldoMcFroog]

"Having said that if you do manage to find then let me know as well. And if you could not do that as I am 100% sure you would be able to. Then by the time you would realise what was true it would be a little bit too late. I am afraid."

I think I'll cope.

"Why can you not think about God when you look at the things not created by someone you know."

Because there is a significantly more elegant and simple explanation that doesn't require such a being, one that is falsifiable, that can be tested, that can generate predications and which explains why it has so many mistakes, something a creation myth cannot.

"However if you do not want to take that as a PROOF, then You have to prove to me or the others who believe in GOD that who created this all. Send me a Framed Photo."

You're the one making an extraordinary claim. You provide the evidence.

"Waldo - Your this common ancestor I hope is Adam. Otherwise do not put me in the boat of people evoluted from the monkeys. As I am sure I never came from monkeys."

As I am. Again you display a complete ignorance of what evolution actually says.

"All of the following Well known scientist, the well known experts of their fields, could not find a mistake in the Quran"

Are their sperm produced somewhere other than the testicles too..? If so - and I do not believe it to be the case - it would suggest that Islam might be a secondary genetic factor associated with those who produce sperm somewhere other than the testicles.

[keyplus90]

Waldo has started repeating my words, that is the first sign of agreeing with something but trying to differ.

[2:269] He [Allah] grants wisdom to whom He pleases; and he to whom wisdom is granted indeed receives a benefit overflowing. But none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

[3:190-191] Verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day - there are indeed signs for men of understanding; Men who remember Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the creation of the heavens and the earth (with the thought) "Our Lord! Not for nothing have You created (all) this. Glory to You! Give us salvation from the suffering of the Fire."

[29:20] Say: Travel through the earth and see how Allah originated creation; so will Allah produce the second creation (of the Afterlife): for Allah has power over all things.

[39:9] ...Say: Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endued with understanding that remember (Allah's Message).

[58:11] ...Allah will raise up to (suitable) ranks (and degrees) those of you who believe and who have been granted knowledge.

[~write~path~]

"So you will believe in an X ray film, created by the X rays, but you will not believe in the one who created you."

TWO.

My parents.

It really is that simple.

[keyplus90]

[23:14] ...We made the drop into an ALAQAH (leech-like structure), and then We changed the ALAQAH into a MUDGHAH (chewed-like substance), then We changed the MUDGHAH into IDHAAM (bones, skeleton), then We clothed the IDHAAM with LAHM (flesh, muscles), then We caused him to grow and come into being as another creation.

[keyplus90]

write path, that means every time your parents have sex, one child must be created with this theory.

[keyplus90]

Why don't you do one thing, once a woman is pregnant, try to make her pregnant again while she is still bearing the first one.

[naomi24]

Waldo has a point. If someone makes extraordinary claims, and expects others to believe him, then the onus is on him to prove the validity of those claims.

[WaldoMcFroog]

"[23:14] ...We made the drop into an ALAQAH (leech-like structure), and then We changed the ALAQAH into a MUDGHAH (chewed-like substance), then We changed the MUDGHAH into IDHAAM (bones, skeleton), then We clothed the IDHAAM with LAHM (flesh, muscles), then We caused him to grow and come into being as another creation."

Yes, so the wrong way round, as I've already said.

You're just proving my point that the Koran isn't scientifically credible.

Any luck finding that research about testicles yet..?

[weggiewabbit]

If God exists he should give an unmistakeable sign to that effect ... and we�re still waiting ...

[weggiewabbit]

... instead, he�s stood idly by while people have killed each other through centuries in his name. If he is there, then I don�t see him as any friend of mine, nor anyone else�s.

[keyplus90]

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science /scientists.html
Waldo - on one side you are saying that you do not trust the findings of all those world re-known doctors, and you now have your Mrs Echo to support you. Which I believe is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. These people are with Well worth of knowledge and you disagree with them only because they are not saying what you believe in. And on the other hand you are asking me for the link to prove about where the sperms are produced. Do I really have to. And if I don't then would I lose the battle? Because I know what you are going to say. So why should I waste my time on a person like you who considers these HIGHLY QUALIFIED people a joke. So who else would you believe in. Even that reference I would give you would be from one of these Doctors or Scientist. I thought you were a knowledgeable person, but after this incident I have changed my mind.

Once a man came home and told his mother that he has a bet with a friend, mother asked what about.
He said "My friend says that Crow is black but I said it is white" so we had a bet. "Then you have already lost my dear" mother said, Because Crows are black. He said "No I would only lose if I will accept his point and I have decided not to".

[keyplus90]

Carry on waiting, when you see him let every one know. Good luck and bye.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Find one single example of the claim that sperm is made anywhere other than the testes. How hard can this be?

I can find literally thousands of references including in scientific journals to prove that sperm is produced in the testicles. Why can you not produce a single one, but instead quote irrelevant verses from the Koran? This is a matter of elementary medical fact we're talking about.

Here's my list straight from Google with the search string "human anatomy testicles sperm"

http://www.google.com/search?q=human+anatomy+t esticles+sperm&btnG=Search&hl=en&lr=&safe=off

Nearly 175K articles contain that phrase. It seems somewhat remarkable that so many websites contain such an error, especially seeing how many of the references are from academic articles.

The string ""sperm not produced in testicles" produces... nothing. Not one result. Ditto "sperm not produced in testes". Isn't this a bit odd that the supposedly wrong information has over 175,000 citations, yet not one website has the allegedly correct information? I know the web's not the be all and end all of information, but still.

[keyplus90]

Only 80 years ago science was saying the other things differently as well. See in the link I gave you and now they approve that. My dear Waldo, Scientific theories always change, because they are just not final. Science is not there yet. But then you are not there either. You do not trust qualified people, you do not trust any evidence given to you so why should I argue with you.

[naomi24]

Mmmm ...... we got yet another Tale of Wisdom, but I take it all that ranting means you can't come up with a rational response, then, Keyplus?

Oh, you're going? Well, thanks for the good luck wishes anyway. Nice to have met you.

Goodbye to you too.

Lots of love

Mrs Echo x

[keyplus90]

Waldo - Do you agree with what these scientists are saying or you do not.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science /scientists.html

Simple Yes or NO.

[keyplus90]

I amjust a humble person, why do you want my Rational response. Why do not trust the Experts.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science /scientists.html

You take it as well.

[naomi24]

Suddenly you're humble. What happened?

[keyplus90]

No I am going as it is bed time. So look at that link and go to the website of these Scientists as well. But just do not agree, because that is what it is all about on AB.