Jesus, the cross and sin!

[Le Chat]

When Jesus died on the cross, I believe the purpose was to die for our sins. Why was this necessary, as we are still held to account for our sins anyway before entering heaven....If we pass !
Also, did he die for the sins of the people who were alive at the time, or the people who were already dead, or the people who were not yet born?

[naomi24]

Theland You are, once again, fitting the story into whatever suits you. You either believe what the bible says or you don't - but you only believe the bits you want to believe. And apart from that, how can you possibly know what God had in mind? You're making excuses for him. Ezekiel didn't have the foggiest idea what he was witnessing, so God didn't make it easier for him by whizzing out of the north like that. I think he did that because that's the way he travelled, and it was the only way he could get there.

Whatever Jesus was recognised as by his contemporaries, the fact remains that according to Christians he was not Joseph's son, and was not, therefore 'born' of the house of David. If you're right, then the prophecy is wrong, but if you're wrong then the prophecy is right. What a dilemma!

I don't have inside information, but I do study the evidence available in an effort to ascertain the truth, and from that I've concluded that your God wasn't a God at all, and if there is a creator it certainly isn't him. That I'm absolutely sure of.

Keyplus hasn't told us where to look for the name Mohammed in the bible yet. I've read it several times, but I must have missed that bit somehow.

[keyplus90]

Naomi -

prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
of Jerusalem."

In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad
(pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.

[naomi24]

Keyplus I've checked that reference - but I don't see the name Mohammed there. Have you looked?

Steve I presume you're talking to me, and if so, I've read it.

[naomi24]

Keyplus My apologies - your responses have been confusing. Although you originally said that the name 'Mohammed' could be found in the Old Testament, I've just realised that you now say the name has been translated into something else in the English version. However, I believe the original word was Makhmaddim, which is the plural form of makhmad, meaning 'desire, desirable thing, precious object', so it seems that someone along the way has decided to translate this as 'Mohammed', and therefore the name 'Mohammed' does not appear in the Bible - Hebrew or English versions.

[keyplus90]

Makhmaddim - even if I believe you as I can not read Hebrew anyway. Not much difference. And as where I got that reference said that im at the end is usually given as respect. You are saying it means something desirable. So in the end it is a matter of translation. Any way word Muhammad has got so many different spellings and it does mean the one praised, or chosen one. But I will not argue as people who want to accept there are so many other hints pointing towards same direction. But those who do not want to accept the examples are there in the history that before the birth of Muhammad (pbuh) the Christian missionaries knew all about him, but so many still decided not to accept him as they were expecting him from Jews and not the Arabs, the descendents of Ishmail (pbuh).

[naomi24]

Keyplus Not much difference? There's every difference, and it's not a matter of translation. Quite simply the words have no connection whatsoever to Mohammed. Full stop.

[keyplus90]

Ok. Fine and well done. Wish you good luck.

[keyplus90]

Naomi - Can you throw some light on this one please.
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament:

The Qur�an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".


1.
MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:

Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will
fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):


i)
Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]


ii)
Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii)
Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)

Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are

[keyplus90]

Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]


iv)
Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v)
Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv)
Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

[naomi24]

Keyplus No I can't. Clearly people see in these things what they want to see.

One thing I would say though, is that your statement that 'Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children', is incorrect. The bible does not tell us whether Jesus was married and had children or not. We simply don't know, so we cannot assume either way.

[Theland]

The Bible also does not tell us if Jesus was a competitive charioteer who raced against Ben Hur!
How much of the absences in Jesus' life should have been included in the testaments to make them acceptable?

[naomi24]

Not quite sure what you're saying there, Theland. Could you elaborate?

[Theland]

Yes, Jesus' wife did not exist as this fictitious person is never mentioned, and yet other women who were prominent in his life are mentioned severally.
It sounds like the only thing that would convince you completely that Jesus was not married, is if the gospel accounts specifically said so, and why should they?

[naomi24]

I don't think it's logical to assume that because a wife isn't mentioned, that one didn't exist. The disciples left their families to follow Jesus, so perhaps he left his family too. And what about the women who are mentioned? Could his wife have been one of those? The answer is no one knows.

[keyplus90]

Jesus(pbuh) never married. Naomi you can assume whatever you like. Yes according to Muhammed's (pbuh) Hadith's he will come back, marry and have children before the end of the world. In his second coming.

[naomi24]

Keyplus I'm not assuming anything. You and Theland are the ones making assumptions by telling me that Jesus wasn't married. Quite simply, you don't know, Theland doesn't know, I don't know - no one knows. It's as simple as that.

[chakka35]

Mally, thanks for your charming aplology re sermons. Rather than clutter up this thread I'll start a new one concerning your claim to have evidence for God.

And naomi, I'll answer your query about the quiz in Q&P.

[naomi24]

Thanks.

[keyplus90]

Naomi - I am not arguing or assuming. I am just saying that there is no mention oh his marriage. You are saying there is no denial either. Fine I agree with you. I do not have problem with that even if he was married because that does not make him God. So many of the messengers of God got married and have children. Yes Christians will have problem with that, because few people take that as a reason of his divinity. But hang on Even Yahiya (pbuh) John the Baptist did not get married (again) but no one believes in his divinity. Double standards.