Souls and clones

[MsEVP]

This is a difficult subject. I believe in reincarnation. That we are basically souls on an evolutionary journey during which we become clothed in a human shell. That this is a physical plane where we learn.

I believe that there are animal souls as well, of course.

When a clone is created what brings it to life? Is it a new soul or the soul of the original body dividing, or sharing itself with another body.?

[JockSporran]

A clone would be a separate soul.

[earsugar]

spectacular question, really got me thinking, I love the souls on a journey idea.

Will think about this one. x

[WaldoMcFroog]

One can only speculate whether Octavius's catty remark indicates he's been reincarnated as a feline...

[chakka35]

You're right, naomi, I do dismiss it. But you and I have always had different ideas as to which strange notions should be given attention and which not. You are more indulgent and generous than me, but then I like to think of myself as being more ...er.. selective. My rules-of-thumb are:
Does this idea make the slightest sort of sense in theory?
Is there the faintest smidgeon of evidence to support it in practice?
If the answer to both of these is 'No' (as in the case of reincarnation) then I pass on to other things. Otherwise I would find myself wasting too much of my precious time alive on any old idea that anyone chooses to conjure up. And it is, of course, why I am an atheist.

In any case, has anyone ever explained what the purpose of reincarnation would be? Since I wouldn't know about any previous lives that I have lived, what would be the point?
Look, naomi, you nearly got me taking it seriously then. You intellectual siren you....

[naomi24]

Chakka ....... ;o)

[Octavius]

Of course we can take account of probability and the extreme unlikelihood, but do you have any evidence to suggest that your cat wasn�t Plato?

If your evidence is based on physical form, or its inability to speak (I have only assumed that � no evidence as yet) then this might just say that at this moment in time, your cat is merely the vessel carrying the soul that once occupied the body of Plato.

If you identify your perception of a seemingly low capacity for your cat to think philosophically as evidence, then how well do you really know your cat?

[keyplus90]

I personally believe that reincarnation does not exist. As main idea and concept behind reincarnation has always been Upgrade if you are good and downgrade if you are bad. So if the degraded or upgraded soul does not remember about previous classification then what�s the point? As we human do not remember who or what we used to be.

Now about the original question. If I agree with reincarnation (hypothetically), I think then it would be the same soul as other wise concept collapses again. As far as cloning is concerned then that is different from reincarnation being a newer life so must have a new soul as well.

These are my feelings, when it comes to knowledge I would say that my knowledge is not even a fraction of what the others have here (without naming anyone).

[naomi24]

Why assume the soul doesn't remember? The conscious mind may not remember, but perhaps the soul's experiences are stored in the sub-conscious mind.

[Octavius]

MsEVP, I know you are not strictly talking about Buddhism - although your little t�te-�-t�te with Whicker identified some of it - but as I understand it, the notion of the transmigration of the soul does not exist in Buddhism. The common misunderstanding with reincarnation is that a person has led countless previous lives, usually as an animal, but somehow in this life they are born as a human being and in the next life will be reborn as an animal, depending on the kind of life they have lived.

The Buddha taught according to the mental and spiritual capacity of each individual. For the simple village folks living during the time of the Buddha, the doctrine of reincarnation was a powerful moral lesson. Fear of birth into the animal world would have frightened many people from acting like animals in this life, hence the ten realms of being taught within Buddhism.

One might ask what realm you are in now. Buddhism would say that if you are hungry for power, love, and self-recognition, then you live in the Preta world. If you are motivated only by thirsts of the human organism, you are existing in the world of the beast. Man (or woman) is characteristically placed at the midpoint of the ten stages; he (or she) can either lower themselves abruptly or gradually into hell, or, through discipline, cultivation and the awakening of faith rise to the enlightened state of the Buddha, the highest level of being. This we are always human, always achieving perfection, ultimately aiming to be the best we can be.

If we take this teaching literally today we become confused because we cannot understand it rationally. If someone believes the philosophy that by not being our �best� our soul regresses to try again and again in a different shell each time, then one might assume that this is probably quite a good, true and moral life to lead.

[wonkon-wonk]

Teddio
Has the number of living creatures been constant since the dawn of time?

are you forgetting that

1 dolphin is equal to 17 marlin
1 orangutan is equal to 5 dogs
1 earthworm is equal to 746 plankton
ect, ect

that is why the number of souls varies all the time!

[keyplus90]

Soul�s experience stored in conscious mind or in sub-conscious, at the end of the day it is same thing. You just do not remember. Or do you remember Naomi about your previous life?

[naomi24]

It's not the same thing at all.

[Octavius]

Are you asserting that when someone has regression therapy that their recollections of being Admiral Nelson or �a Victorian woman� are actuality, that is, a current soul remembering its previous shells?

I am of a mind to think t�is the mind playing tricks.

[wonkon-wonk]

That would mean only one living person on the planet could claim to be Elvis then when they are in a state of regression!

We know that won't be true don't we, There is loads more nutters about than that.

[MsEVP]

Been trying to send this for ages. AB just disappeared. So, trying to recall what I`ve just written and lost:

Naomi, Whickerman, Keyplus, Octavius et al. thanks for all your erudite responses. I can see that a new soul should go into a clone, it`ll start afresh, with no memories from past lives, just a new-born baby soul with a lot more to learn (spiritually) than the original. I don`t think that soul experience can be remembered, either in the sub or conscious, while the soul is inhabiting the body. It would be an impossibility to live a normal life, too mind-blowing. Out of the shell a soul is capable of reviewing its past and progress. Don`t believe that we regress. Animal and human souls are quite separate with their own ladders to climb. On the occasions where real instances of reincarnation have come out under hypnotic regression (and there are a couple of very impressive ones) another explanation can be found for them.

I am a Spiritualist (can I hear laughter!) and that literally means that spirits, personalities of dead people can and want to communicate with us.

Waldo, Teddio, evidence can only be personal, and I have a lot for Spiritualism (there`s that dirty word again!) and I don`t mean you should go to a S. church for it, just get a recorder and open your mind.

[Blind-date]

and float down stream?

[sir.knobby]

Fking ell I'm outta here fast, bunch of nutters

[wonkon-wonk]

thanks knobbs

when i return as a seagull,
i am now gonna sh*t on you !

[naomi24]

Octavius, I'm not sure if your question was to me, or MsEVP, but if it was to me, I'm not asserting anything. Merely musing.