Ok this is a more real question from me.....

[The Sherman]

And porbably a very important one!
Was watching telly this morning and saw an advert saying I should respect all religion. First off I dont like being told what to do by the telly 2nd should I?

[naomi24]

Being unable to see God isn't the only reason people don't believe in him. There are many reasons. The state of the world, the suffering of its people - and don't tell me the plight of those starving through drought, or killed in the Tsunami, is down to man's free will, because it's not. Those horrors are created by nature. Of course, another reason that people don't believe could be the absence of indoctrination, and hence the willingness and the ability to consider the (non-existent) facts with a rational eye.

[keyplus90]

The state of the world is due to the actions of people. Starving people are because others on the other side of the world are putting all into the bin and are eating so much that people have to bring cranes in to get them out of the rooms. Tsunami and so on are the ways for people to go back where they have come from. What would you have done if once on holidays then you would not find anything to get back. So don�t forget that death is imminent and from your posts you always show ignorance to this the most undeniable truth.

In other words you do not want to believe in God because people are dieing. Tomorrow you would say that you do not want to believe in God because once you have eaten you do not feel like eating more.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, What on earth are you talking about?

Tsunami and so on are the ways for people to go back where they have come from. What would you have done if once on holidays then you would not find anything to get back.

No one is ignorant of the fact that death is unavoidable.

[keyplus90]

naomi24
Wed 26/11/08
11:45 Keyplus, What on earth are you talking about?


No one is ignorant of the fact that death is unavoidable.

I thought you were the way you always refuse and to a limit blame God for people dieing of natural disaster.

Any way why do you believe in death Naomi, have you ever seen it?

[chakka35]

keyplus, the challenge that no-one can prove God's non-existence is an old non-argument. I can't prove that unicorns don't exist or fairies at the bottom of my garden (or Russell's famous orbiting teapot) but that is no argument in favour of them. It is up to those who moot supernatural things to provide evidence for them, not for the rest of us to run around chasing every weird idea they dream up.

More interesting, because it is new in my experience, is your claim that...

Logically there are more reasons to believe that [God] exists than otherwise.

This is such an astonishingly bold claim that it really deserves a thread of its own, so I'll start one.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, I still don't know what you were talking about, and your latest response doesn't explain it.

I don't blame God for natural disasters. I don't believe in God.

Your original point was that people don't believe in God because they can't see him, but that isn't necessarily so. We often hear people say 'How can there be a God when famine and Tsunamis happen? These things destroy their faith in God. Others consider the evidence and conclude that he doesn't exist, so lack of belief in God is not always due to the fact that people can't see him.

Your last question is silly, so I won't bother with that. I don't know what your obsession with death has to do with this anyway.

[Octavius]

So you are an atheist then naomi?

[naomi24]

Good idea, Chakka.

[naomi24]

Octavius, from the point of view of those who believe in the biblical God, yes, I am.

[Octavius]

I meant from your point of view.

[naomi24]

Octavius, We�ve been down this road before, and I�m not going there again. As you said on another thread �Yes ok naomi same old same old���. so suffice to say that from the point of view of the majority of the believers in R&S who generally aren�t interested in alternative beliefs, consider me an atheist - and that needs no explanation.

[Octavius]

�from the point of view of the majority of the believers in R&S who generally aren�t interested in alternative beliefs, consider me an atheist - and that needs no explanation.�

But that again is from the point of view of others. That is like me saying I am a Pauline because you said so. But I would say I am a Christian, admittedly a very moderate one who faces criticism for that from both sides of the realm, but a Christian nonetheless.

I only ask because on a recent thread you said you were definitely not an atheist, and on this thread berated Sherman for his/her perception of their own atheism. I thought it was clear cut? Also, who are this �majority� that are not interested in alternative beliefs? Is it those dashed atheists again?

[naomi24]

OK, an explanation is clearly called for. I felt I was speaking accurately when I said I was not an atheist, since I believe there is a spiritual element to the universe, which atheists do not, and that makes me somewhat different from them. However, now the subject has been raised, I would say that the spiritual element that I believe exists does not include a creator, nor a supernatural entity that takes an interest in the affairs of human beings - and it certainly does not include the Biblical God.

I didn�t berate Sherman. I simply outlined the definition of an atheist, and it is clear cut. An atheist doesn�t even consider the possibility of the existence of God - and neither do I - so there you have it. I�m an atheist. Thank you for helping me to clarify that.

[Octavius]

Ok, with the nature thing I can probably see how that would fit with your belief in ghosts, but I am not sure how that �fits� with your para-theological ideas. But I imagine it is an idea that you are 'open to' rather than a 'belief in'.

I think if Sherman wishes to define him/herself as an atheist, then that really is up to them regardless of whether he/she fully suits club membership criteria. Many people who resent or reject (organised) religion will call themselves an atheist, and some even invent a heroic image of themselves. But you will notice that the more secular our world becomes, the larger have become the sections of bookstores devoted to witchcraft, Ouija boards, astrology, and pet rocks. You seem to have followed a similar path, albeit perhaps without the amulets.

I read a quote which was quite apt to the original Q. Friedrich Hayek once said of himself, that he understood many people lacked an ear for music, even though they appreciated the love others had for it. Similarly, he expressed sorrow that he himself lacked an ear for religion. But he did not disrespect those who did hear its silent music.

[naomi24]

Haaaaaaa! That's the best laugh I've had today! How funny! Why on earth would you assume that I'd followed the path of ouija boards, witchcraft, astrology and pet rocks? On second thoughts, don't answer that. The minute you tell some people that you don't believe in God, but believe there's a spiritual element to the universe, comments like that surface. Must dash now - got to light the incense, brush up my chants, dust off my robes, and polish my crystal ball! Now where did I put that Mr Sheen?!

[123everton]

Ah Naomi, more flip flops than a Jordanian shoe seller.
I always think it is very kind almost to the point of arrogance that we 1000s of miles in the lap of comparitive luxury can look at the suffering of peoples in the 3rd world and say "see there is no God".
A year after the tsunami I think it was Rageh Omar returned to the devastated areas to ask that very question, what surprised him was that the people there not only did they still believe in God but it reinforced their belief in God,
Famine in Africa is more often than not brought about by civil war, end the fighting end the famine, and it has to be said K90's right about there being plenty of food to go around, we just won't share it.
The last issue is nothing new, I'm minded to think of Dives and Lazarus.

[keyplus90]

Sorry I am in a hurry but would only say one thing.

Naomi - as 123 Everton said that you are wrong to believe that when disasters come people stop believing in God. My own experience and feeling is that it streghtense the faith.

Personaly it makes me more firm because I believe this world and life to be temp and this whole Universe will indeed diminish one day. So it is 100% according to my faith that people come here and then go back where they come from. The only bit is remining to be seen is the resurrection bit on the day of judgement. And we can only wait and see.

[naomi24]

Ah, Everton. Very sharp, I�m sure, but not quite sharp enough since you have a very bad habit of failing to read posts properly before jumping in with your size nines to slate them. Natural disasters aren�t my reason for disbelief, but they are sometimes cited by others as their reason for disbelief - and that was the point I was making. (We�ve had posts on AB where people have said exactly that).

Rageh Omar must have been generalising somewhat, since many of the people affected by the Tsunami were Buddhists and Hindus, and therefore not really believers in God as you understand God.

We do not share our food, that�s true, but not all famine is due to civil unrest - and yet crops fail and millions starve. Furthermore, how would you explain famine in times gone by when antiquated transport facilities precluded the sharing of food? Were they also the result of man�s selfishness? What you have written sounds awfully like excuses to me - but that�s only to be expected.

And more dire warnings, eh, Everton? That�s only to be expected too. Perhaps you should think a little more about Jesus, about who he really was, and about his instruction to guard against false prophets. You may well have it all wrong. You too, Keyplus. (By the way, I hope your wife is ok).

[Octavius]

Naomi, I would have though the best laugh would be your continual ship-jumping between atheism, spiritualism and paratheology as well as your constant dismissal and contempt for anyone religious. It is odd that even though I was referring to the rise in sales of Ouija boards etc, that you assume I thought you bought the darn things. In that, I agree, what larks. But you do communicate with ghosts don�t you?

So, perhaps you could explain. Is atheism a disbelief in the possibility of God existing and a complete rejection of religion and any form of spiritualist tendencies presumed to be based on irrational �belief�, or are you picking and choosing the parts of atheism that suit you, i.e. the ones that demean Christianity & Islam?