Sam Harris - Believing the Unbelievable

[naomi24]

Not a question, but I thought some in R&S would be interested in seeing this. It addresses the conflict between faith and today's world. (Make a cup of tea before you click the link - the video is 1 hour 9 minutes of total rationality. Good stuff).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-67343 21991450996691&ei=oOyTScGWMoT0-wHVlK2aDA&q=sam +harris&hl=en

[Octavius]

Sam Harris does not advocate what he foresees and we have all witnessed is the inevitable consequence of a tacit tolerance of/for blind faith.

Could you explain that further Mibs, as it appears you are saying torture is a natural consequence of common belief systems, and therefore necessary and unavoidable against people of religion. From what I have read, Sam Harris does advocate torture, he said it in that quote I gave above taken from your link.

Is the general consensus, therefore, that torture and water-boarding is acceptable? We can faff around with a sense of self-righteousness by using words like �justifiable� and �ethically necessary�, but bottom line up � is Sam right?

[mibn2cweus]

Can't say I couldn't be tempted

[Octavius]

I don't believe that could be justified in any circumstances. Its just cruel and inhumane.

[mibn2cweus]

Are there cases where context mining should be considered ethically justified?

[Octavius]

Well some people can only analyse and question the Bible through the use of contextomy, so yes I suppose it might be, if it gets them talking about it.

[naomi24]

Thanks for the feedback Wiz. I'd like to listen to more from him - and I'd love to be a member of the audience. I wonder if he ever comes to England to speak?

[mibn2cweus]

Octavius, I thought I made my point clearly enough already but if you insist I'll try harder.

Terrorist, regardless of the religion, nationality, or ideology they subscribe have exempted themselves from being treated with the same dignity and fairness any legitimate representative of the human race (of any other animal species for that matter) deserves. Terrorism promoted or mandated in the name of a god whose delusion its victims do not share is in itself a form of torture. Desperate circumstances lead to drastic measures which in spite of their abhorrent nature and questionable effectiveness might be and have been determined to be the only recourse.

The point which seems quite obvious to me, which is eloquently spelled out in Sam Harris�s �The End of Faith� and persuasively presented in the �Believing the Unbelievable� video is that in a world where religious zealots have access to devastating technology we can no longer afford to pander to the irrational and unjustifiable beliefs that an invisible, omniscient, omnipotent, and by all reason nonexistent god is on anyone�s side. The very act of purporting the existence of such an entity makes one complicate with the beliefs and actions carried out by those whose �justifications� by virtue of their faith, are no less valid and carry no less credence than your own.

The unwillingness to consign god to the hell his believers have and continue to manifest on Earth is the very sort of thing that has raised the issue, previously unthinkable, of when, where or how torture can be ethically justified.

[Octavius]

I didn't really insist mibs, but you stil fail to give a yes or a no. I am content to leave this post with the knowledge that you therefore condone torture (yes, yes yes, in uber-extreme circumstances ..... )

No more faffey waffle necessary, no FE required.

ta ta

[mibn2cweus]

I realise my answers are not always as clear as they could be, not necessarily what someone might have been looking for and are in fact sometimes just plain wrong. But come on! Was it really torture? If so then I must concede that at least in your estimation, you are correct . . . and do you know . . . it actually make me feel good . . . in a odd sort of way.

[123everton]

What is a terrorist?
The Nazis called the Maquis terrorists and the Maquis used children woho we laud as heroes today.
It really is a matter of viewpoint/prejudice that decides the validity of such actions.
Torture was use reguarly in the 70s and 80s by the local police forces in Britain (that is why they have so much paper work now) the result of these exceses resulted in numerous miscarriages of justice, the success of modern (form filling by police) is that programmes such as "Rough Justice" don't air for several seasons or in fact at all now.
Is the suggestion that the ends sometimes justify the means, I feel not.

[Theland1]

I confess to only having leafed throught the video so my opinion on SH is patchy to say the least, but did he ever conclude there was evidence for something to come from from nothing? ie the universe? Or thyat Daniel and Revelation have much to say about our present shift to a one world government? That Israel remains pivotal in global ploitics, as forwarned?
These are just a few points that need to be addressed by unbelievers.

[mibn2cweus]

Theland, Evidently the words of Sam Harris carry little weight for those to busy attempting to patch the cracks of light streaming through the edifice of their own house of cards to consider an alternative point of view.

In spite of my most valiant efforts I may not have totally escaped being a victim of the hell that believers such as you and your co-conspirators have bestowed on our world through your vilest interpretations of easily one of the most perverse and spiritually crippling testaments ever to be written throughout history but I cannot reconcile with your aspirations to contribute to and promote this most unworthy cause.

Your hatred of and despise for every step humanity has managed to carve out of the jungle of tangled lies and pave over the swamp of resigned indifference is a glaring revelation of your adulation of fear, pain and the unearned guilt of being born into a world where innocent children are taught to subjugate their dreams to the nightmare of self-loathing your disciples espouse as the one 'true' virtue. It is one thing to be dragged down by and ultimately succumb to the torture of the regionally preferred brand of intellectual terrorism. But to worship that which deprives you of the self-respect to attempt survival, the inborn desire of the most humble of species, is rationally inexcusable.

[mibn2cweus]

That the �creator� you espouse was worthy of crucifiction is a laughable understatement. That He sent his only son to do the job for Him is telling of the kind of atrocity you have committed to �living� your life for. I�m committed to burning in hell for all eternity if this is what I truly deserve rather than despise one good and decent thing that anyone has ever done or to turn my back against those who respect, appreciate and pursue the value of life and seek to deserve their right to exist apart from which life would be meaningless as I have no doubt those who seek redemption at the cost of another�s blood would attest if one last remaining true word had not already abandoned their lips and they had not evicted the last remaining rational thought from their mind to make room for empty and self-deluding promises.

God is the alleged creator of something from nothing. The desire of one nation to be the ruler of all nations is as old as the wolf pack; no revelation here. Where politics are concerned religion has always been the other white meat. Unbelievers three, believers zip. Quick! Go lick the pie from your face. �Jesus is coming . . . soon!�

[naomi24]

Theland, I was about to reply to you, but how can anyone follow that^^? My admiration knows no bounds. Apart from anything else, the idea if achieving personal redemption at the cost of another�s blood is so appallingly, and sickeningly, and shamefully accurate.

Sam Harris has this to say on prophecy (and other things), but if you couldn�t be bothered to watch the video, Theland, I doubt you�ll be bothered to read it. Nevertheless, we live in hope.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,139,Reply-to -a-Christian,Sam-Harris

Can you elaborate on your vague references of prophecies please?

I don�t know what Sam Harris thinks about the creation, but if I find anything, I�ll get back to you.

[naomi24]

Sam Harris on creation:

"We know enough at this moment to say that the God of Abraham is not only unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man."

[tamborine]

Here is a lot of sense for this time in all our lives. It's a huge wrench to shrug off the religious teachings of our youth but as one ages and knowledge expanded the early teachings are doubted.

Do you still believe in Father Christmas?