In todays

[MWB]

modern world, where the accepted definition of sin has become blurred, we need to protect ourselves against an over-zealous deity keen to promote an out-dated set of rules.

Who agrees?

[Theland1]

ONE of the things that convinces me f the truth of the Bible, is the prophecy content.
The prophecies concerning the Jews, and Israel, are alone enough for atheists to at least probe further into the Bible.
Empires hostile to the Jews have come and gone, yet God has kept His promise and preserved them, and now gathers them back to the Land.

[Theland1]

Jerusalem is described as a heavy stone, and a cup of trembling an look at it today! Still the unsolvable for not only the middle east, but the United Nations and indeed the whole world.
These things were written some time ago you know.

[naomi24]

Gormless, where does Jesus repeatedly claim to be the Son of God? I know of only one instance - at his trial as recorded in Mark, but since his disciples weren't present, don't you ever wonder who witnessed and recorded those words? As for the other gospels, Luke tells us that when asked the question, Jesus replied 'thou sayest it' - and he says something similar in Matthew, so no claim to greatness in either of those gospels - and there's none in John either. Even when one of his disciples asked him the question, he didn't answer, but simply said 'who do you say I am?', so where are these repeated claims?

Theland, the last time I asked you why you feel the biblical prophesies are so accurate, your reply made little sense to me, and you never came back to explain yourself. For the benefit of those of us who just can't see what you're getting at, would you mind spelling out your take on them in simple terms? In other words, show us why what you're claiming to be fact is indeed fact.

[Theland1]

I've just given two examples in my last post.

[FarKenOath]

MWB states "we need to protect ourselves". She is right.
Run to the hills, an over-zealous deity is about to attack.
Oh no, there it is...........aaaaarrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

[Theland1]

FKO what is your take on israel and the Jews in Bible prophecy?

[Theland1]

The Bible states clearly in the O/T that the Jews would be forced from their land, be persecutedand find no rest.
This came true with two invasions where people were taken into captivity and the land became under foreign occupation - the times of the Gentiles. It happened. For 2000 years the Jews suffered discrimination and persecution - by the RC church, the Spanish Inquisition, massacres in England, and throughout Europe, pogroms in Russia, and always they remained a distinct people, just as the Bible said. Then the Jews began miraculously to return to the Land, and after WW2 became a nation once more, surrounded by enemies to this day, and having fought three wars to survive. But survive they did, just as God promised.
Does that alone not impress you? It does me!

[Octavius]

Theland, given that since about 1800 BC, the area has been under attack, siege and occupation with the persecution of its Jebusite/Jewish inhabitants in continual cycle, it would not take an historical Russell Grant to work out that this might occur again and again since the area was particularly important for trade from East to West. To prophesise the future in such a way is just simple retroactive clairvoyance based on historical precedent (much like Nostradamus himself).

I am however impressed that Judaism has remained intact throughout the course of its history though.

[naomi24]

Theland, no it doesn't impress me. I would have said something very similar to Octavius. You're making so-called prophesies fit to suit your purpose.

[Octavius]

Moreover Theland, what is your view on replacement theology? Would this not equally be a fulfillment of your pruported prophesy and therefore simply follows the will of God?

[chakka35]

Gormless, the gospels are stories told years after the supposed events by unknown people who weren't there and who had no ear- or eye-witness accounts to refer to.
That wouldn't be sufficient evidence to establish the existence of Jesus as an ordinary person let alone a miracle-worker. By all means believe the stories as a matter of faith, but don't cheapen the meaning of the word evidence. Some of us know what it means.

As naomi says, Jesus never claimed to be the son of God. Had he done so, as a member of a Jewish community, he would have been stoned to death for blasphemy.

[Theland1]

So the fact that a persecuted scattered nation without a homeland, should retain their national identity, and outlive several empires, to return once more to their historical homeland, despite all odds, doesn't impress you?
By any law of probability, they should have died out centuries ago, and the land of Israel woud be confined to the history books.
That the reality defies all odds is, to me, tremendously important, in events defying the will of the nations.

[Theland1]

The letters of St Paul and the earliest gospel were written before 60 AD when many eye witnesses were still around, and Mark himself who was a witness would only have been in his upper middle age.

[WaldoMcFroog]

Specious reasoning, Theland. As long as Judeo-Christian theology was a dominant cultural force in the west, it was inevitable that the Jews would maintain a prominance otherwise disproportionate to their numbers.

And the reason the Jews got their homeland was very much related to a certain German despot; are you seriously suggesting the murder of six million Jews was in any way part of a plan by your God, and if so, do you not think any such deity would have to be insane, evil or both to require such a blood sacrifice?

[Theland1]

Octavius, I disagree with Replacement Theology, and believe that the promises and covenants given to Israel remain with Israel, not the church.

[Theland1]

Waldo, Replacement Theology, as far as the church was concerned, relegated the Jews to simply Christ killers, and second class citizens, of no importance at all and so many steps have been taken to get rid of them over so long a period that it is indeed a miracle that any survived at all.
To blame God for the murder of 6m Jews is wrong, as these crimes were plotted and executed by men, but in Gods' wider plan, even such evil can bring about a positive outcome, which it did in helping the creation of a national homeland for the Jews.

[naomi24]

Waldo has raised a very pertinent argument, so why is it wrong, Theland? If you believe that the prophesies of old have been fulfilled, and that God's wider plan has come to fruition, the murder of 6 million Jews must have been part of that plan, otherwise the Jews would not have returned to Israel at that moment in time. I really don't think you can let God off the hook here. You, as his self-appointed spokesman, have some explaining to do.

[naomi24]

No response from Gormless then? It seems to me that today's Christians make the same mistake as the early Christians made. The facts are before them, but they want to believe otherwise - so they do.

[mibn2cweus]

Me thinks the topic of this thread has become blurred, although the subject matter being discussed is quite interesting. Too bad it does not have a thread of its own where scaredy-cats like me wouldn't have to worry about trashing out someone else's thread with pie splatterings.

[neo101]

is there or not that is the question - sure why not aliens too and dinos oh my !!