Religion in general

[GrumpyPom]

why do we have so much emphasis around the world (even for non believers) on the word of a 2000 year old book. I stopped believing in fairy tales when i was about 5, so why do people revolve their lives around some old stories. it almost defies belief.

[naomi24]

jno Do religious people really tend to be happier? Not in my experience. It seems to me most of them live their lives thinking about dying.

[jno]

Tut, you must hang out with odd people, naomi - the ones I meet mostly tend to be kinder and more cheerful than others, happy wth life but perhaps less afraid of death than other people. (It may also be something to do with the fact that they're generally older?)

I think there have been two or three studies in recent years; here's the only one I can find a link to at the moment:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7302609.stm

[naomi24]

Hardly conclusive, jno.

And, yes, some of the people I hang out with are very odd indeed. Our local vicar is one of them. :o)

[jno]

the statistics as reported in this particular study seem clear enough: religious people are happier. But the actual causative link is unclear. Perhaps religion makes them happy. Perhaps religion makes them live better lives and that makes them happy. Many other factors may be involved and it may all be very indirect.

But for the purpose of answering this question: if your belief makes you happy, there's no reason to 'stop believing in fairy tales', since being happy is so important to us. (By contrast, ceasing to believe in actual fairy tales doesn't have any such effect on us.)

[JockSporran]

naomi - you once said that you believe in the existence of the soul. How gullible of you.

[naomi24]

Precisely, jno. Many other factors may be involved and it may, indeed, all be very indirect. The link also says that undetected factors, such as lifestyle or upbringing could contribute, and there are other views which say that religion can lead to self-doubt, and failure, and thereby have a negative effect, and I think that's true in some cases, so the report is not conclusive.

Jock, I'll ignore your sarcasm, and simply say, as I've said many times, that I do believe in the existence of the soul, but that's not because someone else told me exists, or because I read about it in a book, and I have no reason to connect it in any way whatsoever with the God you worship either. Why would I? I doubt there is a God, but if there is, then I don't believe for an instant that it's the fellow the bible talks about. It would have to be something far bigger in all ways than that.

I'm genuinely curious, Jock, and I would love to know the answers, but I can't accept answers that, given a little rational thought, very clearly do not gel. What we need is for someone who is religious to come up with a really positive, logical, argument to support his case. I posted an invitation by way of a question to that effect a little while back, but sadly there were no takers.

Any offers? It would make a fascinating debate.

[JockSporran]

Dear naomi, my sarcasm was not intended to harm, merely to provoke thought. It worked.

No one can come up with answers that everyone can agree on. Maybe that's the whole point. Us humans will go on arguing and counterarguing but can never prove anything. The more we explain away the mysteries of the universe, the longer the nagging doubt remains. Some people will not believe, others will. You can't make a Rangers fan and a Celtic fan support the other team, so best just leave it be.

[Ankou]

big up to jno.
the best answers here by far.

call me old fashioned but the disappearing q'er trick looks like a regular who just wanted to boost the r&s ratings by sticking up a noticeboard saying 'atheists get your oar in here'.

is there any need. cant we all live and let live / each to their own etc etc? i'm an atheist and have no great need to tell people that they are wasting their lives in following an old book. its their life.

[johnny7]

Jno - I agree with you to a certain extent with regards to people who are happier following a religion but I believe that those people to be weak, and I don't mean to offend anyone by saying that but I believe that to be true.

Someone could come along and preach about some nonsense and some will eat that up and live their lives by it which makes them susceptible to con artists.

I could easily write a book and say that a guy named Eric Sean saved the gypsies from the circus clowns and 2000 years down the line people will see Eric Sean as some kind of god.

In summary, people should live and learn from their own mistakes. And eat 5 fruit and vegetables a day.

[keyplus90]

Naomi is right. No religious person could ever give her a rational answer. Reason? well very clear. Because what is rational for her might not be rational for someone else. Or vice versa of course.

So far I have been unable to understand one simple thing. I know many people have said this before and many would say in days and years or perhaps centuries to come. Because it is old argument but is the right one.

You believe in having a creator for every thing BIG or small but the Universe. Which is more sophisticated, complicated and well balanced than the keyboard on our desk. Still few people can�t imagine that a keyboard appeared by itself but they have no hesitation in believing that about the whole Universe. How irrationally rational can we get?

[Ankou]

but that goes for a lot of people who arent religious as well. take people who believe in ghosts and mediums, aliens and the like. what about people who put a lot of belief in herbal remedies and faith healing ?

some people watch most hainted and believe its all true, others wear contraptions on their head and wrists to ward off ailments and evil spirits. who is to say them is weak and others int ?

[johnny7]

People who believe in ghosts and spirits and the like are all mental. Many production companies and made so many programmes based on that concept but viewers never get to see them. Why? Because they are mental and weak.

As for those who believe in spirtual healing, likes tribe members, they are just stuck in their traditional ways and need to be informed about modern medicine. Once they learn more about this then I'm sure they will be more inclined to adopt modern medicine.

The point I'm making is that people should rely on facts and figures and live their lives based on this.

[johnny7]

I forgot to add in that first paragraph, ghosts don't exist and people who believe in them are mental. Done.

[Ankou]

well, like your religionists, i would say they are susceptible and gullible to the power and persuasion of an over imaginative mind.

i wouldnt say mental because that is incorrect.

[naomi24]

Keyplus, You're putting words into my mouth again. I didn't say no religious person could ever give me a rational answer. I'm sincerely hoping that someone can, which is why for a second time in recent weeks, I've asked if anyone who claims a religion can offer a positive, logical, argument to support their case. How about you being the first to give it a go?

Ankou, you ask if there's any need, and the answer is yes. This is R&S, and it's where people who are interested in religion come voluntarily to discuss the subject. If you're not happy to discuss it, there are plenty of other categories on offer. It isn't compulsory to join in here.

[naomi24]

Sorry Jock, had to dash off for a while. Meant to provoke thought? mmm ....I don't think anyone would ever feel it necessary to provoke thought from me, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

And speaking of provoking thought, although I respond to your posts, my deliberations, it seems, provoke no thought from you whatsoever. I posed a question relating to the universe a post or two ago, and had hoped for your thoughts on that.

[JockSporran]

naomi - I must have missed your question on the universe. Maybe it was while I was in hospital or in the recovery at home afterwards, when I stayed away from Answerbank for a while (I'm recovered now; a bit of faith helped).

But I can't offer any answers that haven't already been said. Keyplus's example of the keyboard is good enough.

In the end, unbelievers just don't WANT to believe. They see a force beyond physics as something unattractive and undesirable, so they will rubbish it. They are like the ant, which sees tiny objects but not large ones. Do YOU want to believe? Because if you do, start with an open mind. Start with the word 'maybe...'.

[naomi24]

Jock, I'm so sorry you've been unwell, but pleased to know you're now fully recovered.

Back to business.

1. My question about the universe is on this thread.

2. My keyboard has a Microsoft label on it. No confusion or conflicting information there.

3. You couldn't be more wrong when you say non-believers just don�t want to believe. Perhaps some don�t, but they don�t include many of the people on here who, like me, have actually thought about it and have reached their conclusions through serious and lengthy study. I used to believe, because I was taught from childhood to believe - and then I grew up - and began to methodically investigate the subject, and that�s something that few believers ever do, because firstly they�ve been indoctrinated, and secondly, once you do that - and do it honestly - none of it gels - so that�s a pretty scary step to take for anyone who needs a crutch to get him through life. Despite the impression believers would wish to impart, read the bible (or the Koran, which of course is filched directly from Jewish and Christian texts) and you will find there is little love and compassion in this horrendous God - really, there isn�t. There may be an almighty God, but it isn�t him. If you have the courage to reject the lessons that other men have taught you, as many of the atheists here have, take the next step and look at the wider picture, and further into your own spirituality. If there is a God, then that�s where you�ll find him. I really do hesitate to remind you, but Jesus supposedly said �The Kingdom of God is within you� - so why are you looking outside?

[naomi24]

By the way, Keyplus, have you finished reading The God Delusion? I've kept my half of the bargain and read the book you recommended, Islam and the Destiny of Man.

[keyplus90]

Naomi- If Microsoft had not been written on your keyboard would you have believed that it was not created or manufactured by anyone and appeared by itself? So the answer to your question would be given once you think about this possibility of appearing of your keyboard from no where.

And Quran has not been filched from Bible. As Muhammad (pbuh) was unable to read or write (for a good reason), and I am sure you do not know that the earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament is that of R. Saadias Gaon of 900 C.E. - more than 250 years after the death of Muhammad (pbuh). The oldest Arabic version of the new Testament was published by Erpenius in 1616 C.E. - about a thousand years after the demise of our Prophet. So similarities between Quran and few parts of Bible are due to the same source and nothing more.

Finally about God Delusion. I have read a bit but not finished yet as since I lost my job I have become more busier as wife sees that as a helping hand more available than before.