Islamic idolatry

[jake-the-peg]

Islam makes a big play about not bowing down to graven idols. The fact that it forbids representations of Humans and animals etc is well known and there is a lot of criticism towards catholic practices of worhiping at the relics of saints etc.

Yet millons of them crown ito a stadium in Mecca circle a stone building and desperately try to kiss a black stone simply because they believe their phophet did the same.

Is this not a form of idolotry? Is it any different to Catholics worshipping infront of thorn of the supposed "crown of thorns"

[jno]

I don't think that's what 'idol' means, is it? The first definition that came up when I googled was "a material effigy that is worshipped". I think the effigy element is what matters. (Statues of Jesus or Mary are mostly used as reminders rather than actual objects of worship - though not always.)

The "graven images" thing is different, and I think that's what Muslims mostly observe, though there are depictions of living beings on some old mosques. Christians were against it too in Cromwell's time (and earlier in the Greek Orthododx church, I think).

[Count-A-Strong]

The Islamic sin of 'Sirk' (Idolatry) means the worshiping of anyONE other than God (Allah) so I don't think it extends to inanimate objects as they are not worshiping this as a God.

[jno]

that's my impression, Count - that you can revere someting for its associations (like Shakespeare's wooden leg, for instance) without worshipping it as if it were a god.

[jackthehat]

The wahabis would be content to see an end to both Mecca and Medina as places of Islamic pilgrimage.

[Count-A-Strong]

That sauce they make for sushi is bl00dy spicy tho isn't it!

[jake-the-peg]

Ah but the black stone is not a reminder of God is it?

It is a reminder of Mohammed who supposedly kissed it too and if that is permissable why not all sorts of souvenirs and relics.

(Obviously we're mainly talking Sunni muslims here)

[jackthehat]

Rotter !
I had to google that to make sure I hadn't made a plonker of myself.............;o)

[DTCwordfan]

I quote as to //a stone building and desperately try to kiss a blackstone//

The Kaaba (Arabic: الكعبة‎ al-Kaʿbah IPA: [ʔælˈkæʕbɐ], English: The Cube) is a cube-shaped building in Mecca, Saudi Arabia, and is the most sacred site in Islam.

The building predates Islam, and, according to Islamic tradition, the first building at the site was built by Ibrahim (Abraham). The building has a mosque built around it, the Masjid al-Haram. All Muslims around the world face the Kaaba during prayers, no matter where they are.

Abraham is said to have stood here during the re-construction of the upper parts of the Kaaba, raising Ishmael on his shoulders for the uppermost parts. The building was thought to be the first one that Adam constructed and hence the significance of the building to Muslims as they recognise the importance of the OT and early Prophets.

As to facing the Kaaba from anywhere in the world, just as we do in facing East towards Jerusalem in our churches......

[jno]

well, like I said, I think it's the effigy thing that's important, and the injunction against graven images of people (actually, I don't know what the exact rule in Islam is). They may want to kiss the stone that Mohammad kissed, but I don't think it's the same as worshipping it or making an idol.

[jomifl]

An awful lot of them carry photos of hero suicide bombers and mullahs during processions, How do they square this with not depicting peoples faces. Or is this interpretation of islam only used by a particular sect?

[claymore]

Your just banging your head against a wall trying to figure out what goes on in a Muslims mind, and I use the word "mind" loosely .

[Ankou]

i think in muslim terms that this is not idolatry because they are not praying to an 'object' but in its general direction, thus the requirement to face mecca during prayer as well as circumvent it during the haaj. and the kaaba was not forged or crafted by man .... but by allah.....

the haaj is a religious duty, so that would absolve them of any sin in that respect. it is also not a depiction in human form. i guess in the old days you could easily spot a muslim (apart from appearance of course) because they all faced a general direction when praying, whereas most christians would have looked to the sky, or towards a statue/crucifix etc. most religions have some form of qibla, even churches sometimes have specific directtional meaning, as did the way a body was buried in a cemetry.

[jake-the-peg]

Is that True Ankou - I thought the belief was that it was built by Abraham at God's command (Bored with Arks I guess)

[jake-the-peg]

Also this picture rather makes it look as if it's made in a remarkably modern manner!

What's the story here!?

http://www.muftisays.com/misc.php?page=kabah

[Ankou]

the kaaba was built by (prophet) adam following instructions from god - using the black stone. perhaps this was some early form of copying/taking over/ wiping out paganism. the kaaba is mentioned in the bible too i think. it was reconstructed the first time by abraham/ibrahim and has been rebuilt between 5 and 12 times since.

the most recent reconstruction of the kaaba took place in 1996. during reconstruction the only original thing left from the kaaba are the (black) stones. all other materials were replaced including the ceiling, the roof and its wood.

[naomi24]

I don't recall it being mentioned in the bible. Where?

Some think the black stone is a meteorite, but as far as I know that is unconfirmed.

[Ankou]

bethel, in genesis, et alii

[boxtops]

Agree, Naomi, also, when Abraham reconstructed the Ka'aba, he was making use of an existing building which (as I recall) used to house idols from previous religious beliefs. The Ka'aba is hollow, it is opened annually for cleaning (it's a major ceremony, I have a friend who was there one year on opening day and got to see inside).
Certainly the Ka'aba itself is not worshipped, any more than the Black Stone, which is incredibly old and could well be a meteorite. The comparison to churches facing to the Holy Land is good since Muslims the world over face Mecca to pray, it being the No. 1 holy city in Islam. Anyone suggesting that the Ka'aba itself is being worshipped is wrong, the Ka'aba is situated in the centre of the Grand Mosque (Haram Sharif) in Mecca, Muslims would no more worship a building than Christians would worship (say) Canterbury Cathedral. It's a precious holy object in a place of worship, not an object TO worship.

[naomi24]

Ah, Jacob's stone. No, that doesn't work. Bethel was a place in Israel.

[Ankou]

'no that doesn't work'

what are you trying to prove? or are you just being deliberately imperious?