Foreigners ahead of English for World Cup training squad

[pa___ul3]

Not expecting mant answers here given this is the only question but hey ho!

Martin Johnson's picked 13 overseas born players in the the World Cup training squad, supposedly to show the English lads they can't take it for granted they'll get picked ahead of these overseas born players just because they were born here.

Do you think he's right to do this?

[samak]

Yes

[pa___ul3]

So you're not one of those who think the England team should be the best England can produce?

[samak]

I have no problem with people born overseas who are now British citizens playing for England.

[jackthehat]

I can see what he is saying.........but I prefer the people wearing an England shirt (whatever the sport) to be born here.

[samak]

So if you were a sports star and went to Australia you shouldn't be allowed to play for them? Or does this only apply to dark people ?

[jackthehat]

If the Aussies, or any other country, are happy to let people born outside their national borders play for them, I think that it is a matter for them.

I said that *I* prefer it if the people wearing an England shirt are born here.
And incidentally, any reference to colour is strictly in your own tiny mind, samak.

[pa___ul3]

I haven't pinned my colours to either side of the argument to be fair and I'd rather leave skin colour out of the argument, that's of no importance at all!
I personally feel that a player should only represent the English national team if they are English. If they were born somewhere else and grew up here, that's fine, if they'd call themselves English then I'd be happy with that. I don't agree with players who are blatantly of a different nationality representing our nation in any sport just because they have lived here liong enough to gain dual citizenship, I think it devalues it.

[jackthehat]

Me, too, Pa___ul3, me, too....:o)

[jno]

then it devalues the whole idea of citizenship if you can be British but not do things that other British citizens do. The Australians have state-of-origin matches so people can gt sentimental about where you were born; but for international matches, if you're an Australian citizen, that's it.

[jackthehat]

Firstly, I have no idea which players Johnno has chosen and whilst I'm not back-tracking on what I said, perhaps I ought to qualify it.

There were several 'very' grown-up players who suddenly found themselves able to play a sport, at international level, in the jersey of A.N.Other country because it was expedient for this particular country to have them do so......even with the most tenuous of connections.

If we have a 'home-grown' but overseas born player who wishes to play for England, I also have no problem with that.

[jno]

foreign-born rugby players come to England for exactly the same reason as foreign-born anybodies do: bigger country, more of a market for their skills here. Call them economic migrants if you want (this is not a swearword, in my opinion, possibly because I am one). If they fulfil initial entry requirements, and are prepared to stay long enough to fulfil residential requirements, they have the same right to seek citizenship as anyone else. And if they are British citizens, they should have (and do have) exactly the same rights as other British citizens.

[pa___ul3]

that's a fair point jno, and I suppose I am looking at the world of sport as a different entity to the real world, but I do think the idea of national teams in sport is about representing your country, it's the pinnacle of a sportsman's career and I just tend to feel that the English national team should be exactly that, the best that England has produced sportswise, not the best that we've attracted to the country with our bigger wages for long enough to claim dual citizenship.
You can add the pride element too, if, for example, Fourie and Botha aren't good enough to play for South Africa, it's not particularly encouraging that they're selected for us.
I'd never feel any animosity towards them, like Kevin Pietersen in the cricket, he's a great player and has always played with a lot of heart for England, but I just don't think it's right.
And I'd consider myself relatively un-nationalistic!

[jackthehat]

Of course they ought to be able to have exactly the same rights....and if there was a British Rugby team I would be happy to see a mix of the four-nations plus......but this is specifically the England team.

The fault may lie with me and I me, I concede.

[jackthehat]

Sorry about the clumsy editing.....:o(

[jno]

that's an interesting point, jack - what if a South African comes to live in England, qualifies as a British citizen - but actually wants to play for Scotland? There are, I imagine, some rules covering this, but I have no idea what they are. I thought it might depend on where you played club rugby, but on reflection, I think Riki Flutey (a Kiwi now in Britain) actually plays or played for a French club.

So I don't know. I would be surprised, however, if there were no regulations dealing with it.

(Incidentally, I have a vague idea that the rules are different for South Africans than for some other foreigners - they're lumped in with Europeans because of some sort of free-trade agreement, whereas Australians and Kiwis are not. It's complicated.)

[jno]

PS, just to clarify: Flutey is in Johnson's squad. So are 12 other foreign-born players, including Delon Armitage from Trinidad and Simon Shaw from Kenya. Some have grown up in Britain, however, and some will have come here to pursue their trade.

http://news.bbc.co.uk...by_union/13830977.stm

Also in the list: an American, an Australian and a South African ex-cokehead.

[pa___ul3]

I was trying to work out who the Aussie was then! Good ol' wikipedia!