ChatterBank1 min ago
Worst ever government prediction - immigration from EU
21 Answers
Is this the worst ever government prediction (although there is a lot to choose from).
They estimated 15,000 people a year would come from the new EU countries.
In fact nearly 450,000 (yes NEARLY HALF A MILLION) have arrived.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5273356 .stm
Surely when unemplyment in this country is around 1,677,000 (and rising) this is lunacy.
Surely Labour have almost ruined this country for all time with their lax control of immigration and asylum.
They estimated 15,000 people a year would come from the new EU countries.
In fact nearly 450,000 (yes NEARLY HALF A MILLION) have arrived.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5273356 .stm
Surely when unemplyment in this country is around 1,677,000 (and rising) this is lunacy.
Surely Labour have almost ruined this country for all time with their lax control of immigration and asylum.
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In fact it is so bad now that a Polish charity has been invited here to England to help the Poles who are now living in squaler and poverty.
The Poles are turning to drugs, prostitution and crime.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml =/news/2006/08/18/npole18.xml
So as if we did not have enough drugs takes, prostitues and criminals we now invite them here from Poland and other EU countries.
Is there any way we can take Blair to court for failing to look after this country properly.
The Poles are turning to drugs, prostitution and crime.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml =/news/2006/08/18/npole18.xml
So as if we did not have enough drugs takes, prostitues and criminals we now invite them here from Poland and other EU countries.
Is there any way we can take Blair to court for failing to look after this country properly.
Atleast poles are coming here to work..so what if there turning to drugs/drink...what does our benefit system go on these days anyway!
Queues of junkies and wasters outside job centre, at least poles bother themselves to get work...It goes to show if you want a job it is available!!!
People are just lazy!
could be worse...we could be letting people live here, forming their own communities and essentially plotting our destruction....
oh wait...We DO!
Queues of junkies and wasters outside job centre, at least poles bother themselves to get work...It goes to show if you want a job it is available!!!
People are just lazy!
could be worse...we could be letting people live here, forming their own communities and essentially plotting our destruction....
oh wait...We DO!
-- answer removed --
This issue now seems to be raised at least once a week and my views are widely available in other answers. However, before we all get carried away with the euphoria of having 500,000 Poles here now to do our dirty work consider this hypothetical scenario.
An English man with a wife and two children works in an English factory. He is unskilled and earns about �350 a week (�17,500pa). They are by no means rich, but they get by. He sees that the in Utopia (a couple of hour�s flight away) for doing similar work, he can earn �5,000 per week. England has recently joined the Utopian Community (a federation of states) and he is now allowed to go to live and work there. It will cost him about �1,000 a week to rent a room and feed himself, but he will still be left with more than ten times the wages he earns here. Utopia is said to be suffering a huge shortage of unskilled labour.
He decides to go, leaving his family in England. When he arrives, things are not quite as he was led to believe. He has trouble finding a job (Utopia has 1.5m unemployed of its own) but he discovers that if he offers to work for less (around �4,000 per week), employers will choose (understandably) to employ him rather than a Utopian. He manages to get a job. He is a little disappointed not to earn quite as much as he had expected, but no matter. He still has eight or nine times the disposal income he had in England. The Utopian worker he displaces begins a life on state benefits as this is more attractive than working for less than the going rate. Many other Englishmen seeking their fortunes are not so lucky. They are unable to find a job. With little money (their savings do not go far when you have to pay �1,000pw to live) they end up on the streets of the Utopian capital.
(Cont�d - don't miss the next exciting episode!)
An English man with a wife and two children works in an English factory. He is unskilled and earns about �350 a week (�17,500pa). They are by no means rich, but they get by. He sees that the in Utopia (a couple of hour�s flight away) for doing similar work, he can earn �5,000 per week. England has recently joined the Utopian Community (a federation of states) and he is now allowed to go to live and work there. It will cost him about �1,000 a week to rent a room and feed himself, but he will still be left with more than ten times the wages he earns here. Utopia is said to be suffering a huge shortage of unskilled labour.
He decides to go, leaving his family in England. When he arrives, things are not quite as he was led to believe. He has trouble finding a job (Utopia has 1.5m unemployed of its own) but he discovers that if he offers to work for less (around �4,000 per week), employers will choose (understandably) to employ him rather than a Utopian. He manages to get a job. He is a little disappointed not to earn quite as much as he had expected, but no matter. He still has eight or nine times the disposal income he had in England. The Utopian worker he displaces begins a life on state benefits as this is more attractive than working for less than the going rate. Many other Englishmen seeking their fortunes are not so lucky. They are unable to find a job. With little money (their savings do not go far when you have to pay �1,000pw to live) they end up on the streets of the Utopian capital.
(Cont�d - don't miss the next exciting episode!)
(Cont'd)
For those of you unable to see the parallel I am trying to draw let me be more specific. The average wage in Poland for unskilled workers is about �30pw. In England it is about �375pw. In Poland some earn as little as �1.50 per day. In England some earn as little as �40 per day. Britain has about 1.65m unemployed, more than a million of whom exist on benefits.
The government likes a pool of cheap labour to be available. It suppresses wage inflation (but not, unfortunately, properly measured price inflation). It also gives them a good feeling because they can say �tens of thousands more jobs are now filled as a result of the open-door policy we adopted (and we were almost alone among countries to do so)�. Unfortunately they neglect to add that tens of thousands more are likely to be thrown out of work as a result of the same policy. No more jobs have been created � we�re simply importing unemployment. Those displaced are added to the already high numbers of �career� unemployables. In any sane society, of course, these would be encouraged or even (gasp) forced to work instead of having cash lavished upon them whilst cheap foreign labour is imported.
A level playing field?
A �Common� labour market?
�Simply Capitalism?
Don�t make me laugh � it�ll burst my stitches!
For those of you unable to see the parallel I am trying to draw let me be more specific. The average wage in Poland for unskilled workers is about �30pw. In England it is about �375pw. In Poland some earn as little as �1.50 per day. In England some earn as little as �40 per day. Britain has about 1.65m unemployed, more than a million of whom exist on benefits.
The government likes a pool of cheap labour to be available. It suppresses wage inflation (but not, unfortunately, properly measured price inflation). It also gives them a good feeling because they can say �tens of thousands more jobs are now filled as a result of the open-door policy we adopted (and we were almost alone among countries to do so)�. Unfortunately they neglect to add that tens of thousands more are likely to be thrown out of work as a result of the same policy. No more jobs have been created � we�re simply importing unemployment. Those displaced are added to the already high numbers of �career� unemployables. In any sane society, of course, these would be encouraged or even (gasp) forced to work instead of having cash lavished upon them whilst cheap foreign labour is imported.
A level playing field?
A �Common� labour market?
�Simply Capitalism?
Don�t make me laugh � it�ll burst my stitches!
JudgeJ - many times you have mentioned that these 'career unemployables' should be made to work for a living (instead of giving jobs to immigrnats who do want to work).
Couple of questions:
1) What sort of work will you force them to do?
2) How will you force them to do it?
3) What if they don't do it?
Couple of questions:
1) What sort of work will you force them to do?
2) How will you force them to do it?
3) What if they don't do it?
Some very good points oneeyedvic. I'd much rather have hard working Poles, and other similar immigrants, than the lazy, work shy folk living on benefits in this country. (I do not mean the unemployed in general).
I think the Telegraph article clearly shows that Britain is not Utopia (as JJ claims) and that many of the immigrants have not found it so. However, those who are prepared to work hard and show a bit of initiative are doing well.
Yet another bit of scaremongering by the right wing.
I think the Telegraph article clearly shows that Britain is not Utopia (as JJ claims) and that many of the immigrants have not found it so. However, those who are prepared to work hard and show a bit of initiative are doing well.
Yet another bit of scaremongering by the right wing.
Local building site was paying �18 per hour to Joiners now paying �9 take it or leave it, if you don't accept it the Poles will. The public don't gain from this the house prices have stayed the same.
Now the joiner I know pays less tax and because he is a family man claims child tax credits therefore far less for the chancellor.
Unemployment is going up the statistics show not because people are lazy as others believe but because there are no jobs, local paper normally has 6-8 pages of jobs last week 1
A lot of hospitality jobs will end shortly as it is the end of the holiday season, and chrismas staff are not wanted yet so what are these immigrants going to do for the next couple of months?
Now the joiner I know pays less tax and because he is a family man claims child tax credits therefore far less for the chancellor.
Unemployment is going up the statistics show not because people are lazy as others believe but because there are no jobs, local paper normally has 6-8 pages of jobs last week 1
A lot of hospitality jobs will end shortly as it is the end of the holiday season, and chrismas staff are not wanted yet so what are these immigrants going to do for the next couple of months?
Answers to Vic:
1. Any work they are capable of. There are plenty of vacancies, that is why we are importing labour. If an unskilled Eastern European can undertake these tasks then a British person who has had the benefit of the first-rate education that the British state system has provided should not have too much trouble.
2 and 3. By removing from all but those genuinely in need the generous benefits provided to those who simply refuse to work. This would be achieved by making the assessment of their plight (including those claiming to be disabled) more robust. This will free up money for those genuinely in need and remove from those who refuse to work the funds to drink, smoke gamble and generally live a comfortable life whilst those working (including the recent newcomers) drag themselves out of their pits in the morning to go and earn a living. The people living the lifestyle I describe are not few and far between or exceptional. Anybody can see them any day in any town.
Answer to gef:
No, Britain is not Utopia, gef. It is a country with high (and rising) unemployment, high price inflation (if properly measured) and massive social problems in many areas. The very point of my illustration was to show just that. I was trying to demonstrate how understandably easy it is for the Eastern Europeans to get sucked into Britain and that we are deceiving both the people of this country and potential incomers to pretend it is a wise to allow them to be so fooled.
I�ll say no more on this topic. Time will tell whether the likes of me and sandbach99 are right or whether we are simply joining the scaremongers. It is interesting to note that the government is �reviewing its position� on the potential unfettered influx of Romanians and Bulgarians when those countries join the club next year. Judging by the reaction of the majority of other respondents to this question, I cannot imagine what makes
1. Any work they are capable of. There are plenty of vacancies, that is why we are importing labour. If an unskilled Eastern European can undertake these tasks then a British person who has had the benefit of the first-rate education that the British state system has provided should not have too much trouble.
2 and 3. By removing from all but those genuinely in need the generous benefits provided to those who simply refuse to work. This would be achieved by making the assessment of their plight (including those claiming to be disabled) more robust. This will free up money for those genuinely in need and remove from those who refuse to work the funds to drink, smoke gamble and generally live a comfortable life whilst those working (including the recent newcomers) drag themselves out of their pits in the morning to go and earn a living. The people living the lifestyle I describe are not few and far between or exceptional. Anybody can see them any day in any town.
Answer to gef:
No, Britain is not Utopia, gef. It is a country with high (and rising) unemployment, high price inflation (if properly measured) and massive social problems in many areas. The very point of my illustration was to show just that. I was trying to demonstrate how understandably easy it is for the Eastern Europeans to get sucked into Britain and that we are deceiving both the people of this country and potential incomers to pretend it is a wise to allow them to be so fooled.
I�ll say no more on this topic. Time will tell whether the likes of me and sandbach99 are right or whether we are simply joining the scaremongers. It is interesting to note that the government is �reviewing its position� on the potential unfettered influx of Romanians and Bulgarians when those countries join the club next year. Judging by the reaction of the majority of other respondents to this question, I cannot imagine what makes
more people are leaving Britain than are coming in, except for short term stays. I do hope they are all finding proper employment and not just taking drugs and turning to crime as they do here, though recent reports from Ibiza suggest otherwise. At any rate, they leave behind them jobs that need doing. Immigrants are doing them. Send them all home and see what happens to the UK education and health systems.
Nobody (well certainly not me) is suggesting that we "send them all home".
We do have, it seems, labour shortages in certain industries and professions. We also have at least 1.65m people unemployed and (allegedly) doing nothing. The vast majority of these are claiming "Jobseekers' Allowance" (which would indicate to me that they are seeking work).
All I'm sugesting is that a more reasoned approach to this conundrum needs to be adopted.
We do have, it seems, labour shortages in certain industries and professions. We also have at least 1.65m people unemployed and (allegedly) doing nothing. The vast majority of these are claiming "Jobseekers' Allowance" (which would indicate to me that they are seeking work).
All I'm sugesting is that a more reasoned approach to this conundrum needs to be adopted.
"If an unskilled Eastern European can undertake these tasks" - hang on, I thought we were talking about skilled people - or at least that is the example you gave in your previous post.
Even with the unskilled that the immigrants are doing - look around you - do you want to work alongside these (as you term them) �career� unemployables. Or do you want to be served by them - or do you want your house built by them?
"By removing from all but those genuinely in need the generous benefits provided to those who simply refuse to work." - so you are going to stop giving benefit to people. If they can't find a job or simply don't want to work. Excellent - so when a "career uunemployable" doesn't get any money - what do you think he will do? My thinking is he will turn to crime - well that's alright - I guess we an turn the other "career unemployables" into police officers, prison warders and get these people building more prisons.
Even with the unskilled that the immigrants are doing - look around you - do you want to work alongside these (as you term them) �career� unemployables. Or do you want to be served by them - or do you want your house built by them?
"By removing from all but those genuinely in need the generous benefits provided to those who simply refuse to work." - so you are going to stop giving benefit to people. If they can't find a job or simply don't want to work. Excellent - so when a "career uunemployable" doesn't get any money - what do you think he will do? My thinking is he will turn to crime - well that's alright - I guess we an turn the other "career unemployables" into police officers, prison warders and get these people building more prisons.
I cannot keep up this argument too much longer, vic, I�m rapidly losing the will to live. You will never convince me that it is a good idea to continue to pay people to do nothing whilst importing other people to do the work the first lot �will not do�. I�ll obviously not convince you to the contrary.
I don�t have all the detailed answers and those I have are really too long for AB. Furthermore I don�t expect the problem to be solved in a jiffy. However, it has been going on for long enough for a change in direction to have been considered long before now. I�ll just say a couple of more things then you can have the last word.
I don�t believe I referred to skilled people at all in any of my earlier answers. But if I inadvertently did I would say that the skill levels involved are not the principle issue. It seems that the newcomers are being employed predominantly (though not exclusively) in unskilled jobs and I assume (maybe falsely, but probably with good reason) that those unemployed are predominantly (though not necessarily entirely) from the lower end of the skill range.
I would not expect benefits to be withdrawn overnight. What would be needed is a properly managed strategy to withdraw the levels of support when and where jobs are clearly available. It will concentrate the minds of those concerned if their income is gradually but surely reduced. As for their turning to crime. Some will (like some employed people, some are probably already engaged in crime anyway). Many will not. As I said, the threat of reduction in benefits will concentrate their minds enormously. We should not be blackmailed by this perceived threat.
At present it is too easy to drift into a life of long-term unemployment. There are jobs around. It should be made less comfortable.
That�s me done (I think!)
I don�t have all the detailed answers and those I have are really too long for AB. Furthermore I don�t expect the problem to be solved in a jiffy. However, it has been going on for long enough for a change in direction to have been considered long before now. I�ll just say a couple of more things then you can have the last word.
I don�t believe I referred to skilled people at all in any of my earlier answers. But if I inadvertently did I would say that the skill levels involved are not the principle issue. It seems that the newcomers are being employed predominantly (though not exclusively) in unskilled jobs and I assume (maybe falsely, but probably with good reason) that those unemployed are predominantly (though not necessarily entirely) from the lower end of the skill range.
I would not expect benefits to be withdrawn overnight. What would be needed is a properly managed strategy to withdraw the levels of support when and where jobs are clearly available. It will concentrate the minds of those concerned if their income is gradually but surely reduced. As for their turning to crime. Some will (like some employed people, some are probably already engaged in crime anyway). Many will not. As I said, the threat of reduction in benefits will concentrate their minds enormously. We should not be blackmailed by this perceived threat.
At present it is too easy to drift into a life of long-term unemployment. There are jobs around. It should be made less comfortable.
That�s me done (I think!)
-- answer removed --
JudgeJ - please do not lose the will to live - I do enjoy your postings. Believe it or not, I do agree with a lot you say - I to believe that the benefit culture in this country is far too easy (and I do agree that a culture should exist to make people 'work' for their benefits - and that includes disabled people).
When I argue, it is not necessarily because I do not agree with you - but because I want people to think through and understand the ramifications of their thoughts / actions.
As you (and many people before hand) have said it is a shame that because of the amount of words you can use on AB, it is difficult to have a full discussion, but still interesting none the less.
See you in another question no doubt!
When I argue, it is not necessarily because I do not agree with you - but because I want people to think through and understand the ramifications of their thoughts / actions.
As you (and many people before hand) have said it is a shame that because of the amount of words you can use on AB, it is difficult to have a full discussion, but still interesting none the less.
See you in another question no doubt!
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