ChatterBank1 min ago
Fail To Provide Specimen For Analysis - Vehicle Driver. Lots Of Questions.
I'm thinking about pleading not-guilty but have questions which I have to find answers to before I go ahead.
1. Am I able to ask the police to disclose the details of the case they plan to make against me?
2. The reason I plan to plead not-guilty is that I don't believe I'm guilty of the actual charge which is 'Fail to provide specimen for analysis - vehicle driver'
In my mind the spirit of the law in this case dictates that to attract this charge you must have been failing to cooperate with the police so they had no choice but to apply this charge. That you might have been refusing to take a breath test because you knew you were very guilty and wanted to try and avoid a charge so refused to give a sample.
Where I believe there is an issue is in the fact that whilst remaining silent (as is my right) I did fully cooperate with every request, including roadside breath test, no resistance during arrest, agreeing to finger-printing, photographs, strip-search and all other requests. I was not actually asked if I would provide a breath sample at the station.
3. Having established in my mind that I had fully cooperated and was not asked to provide a breath sample I am now stuck with the question of whether or not a judge will have any interest in believing me ahead of whichever representative the police send to make the case against me. I believe having cooperated with every other request (including a roadside breath test) that my insistence that I was not asked to provide a sample at the station carries some weight. How will the police claim I refused when I cooperated with everything else?
4. I was kept in the cell for the night, in the morning the custody sergeant asked a member of the staff to take my finger prints and photographs. I said you already did that last night. The custody sergeant insisted that we went through the process anyway. When they tried to upload a second set of prints to the system the system refused to accept them because the prints had already been uploaded the night before. I watched them try and do this and the system wouldn't allow them to repeat the procedure. The officer taking my prints reported this to the sergeant.
5. I could see on the screen of the roadside testing device the figures of 1, 3 and 5 but was looking at the screen from an angle and they did not show it to me or tell me anything about the result. I had smoked 10 cigarettes in the previous couple of hours and just eaten a McDonalds although did not disclose this to the police at any time. I remember the older devices had a traffic light system giving you a red, amber or green indicator. I don’t remember seeing any lights on the device so really unsure what reading they had.
6. The police could not find the keys for the car either about my person or anywhere in the vehicle.
7. Could points 5 & 6 have contributed to a decision by the police to attempt to present this situation as if I had failed to provide a specimen because there were weakenesses in the evidence for supporting other potential charges?
8. Assuming I am unable to see what evidence the police are planning to use against me is it at all likely that they will attempt to use reports and video footage from the roadside scene to sully the waters and bolster their case even if the charge is ‘failing to provide’ – I would have thought it should be all about what happened at the station but can see that they might want to paint a picture of events including observation leading to arrest and everything which followed. I am a fast driver naturally so am always at risk of being caught on video doing all of the things the police love to talk about.
1. Am I able to ask the police to disclose the details of the case they plan to make against me?
2. The reason I plan to plead not-guilty is that I don't believe I'm guilty of the actual charge which is 'Fail to provide specimen for analysis - vehicle driver'
In my mind the spirit of the law in this case dictates that to attract this charge you must have been failing to cooperate with the police so they had no choice but to apply this charge. That you might have been refusing to take a breath test because you knew you were very guilty and wanted to try and avoid a charge so refused to give a sample.
Where I believe there is an issue is in the fact that whilst remaining silent (as is my right) I did fully cooperate with every request, including roadside breath test, no resistance during arrest, agreeing to finger-printing, photographs, strip-search and all other requests. I was not actually asked if I would provide a breath sample at the station.
3. Having established in my mind that I had fully cooperated and was not asked to provide a breath sample I am now stuck with the question of whether or not a judge will have any interest in believing me ahead of whichever representative the police send to make the case against me. I believe having cooperated with every other request (including a roadside breath test) that my insistence that I was not asked to provide a sample at the station carries some weight. How will the police claim I refused when I cooperated with everything else?
4. I was kept in the cell for the night, in the morning the custody sergeant asked a member of the staff to take my finger prints and photographs. I said you already did that last night. The custody sergeant insisted that we went through the process anyway. When they tried to upload a second set of prints to the system the system refused to accept them because the prints had already been uploaded the night before. I watched them try and do this and the system wouldn't allow them to repeat the procedure. The officer taking my prints reported this to the sergeant.
5. I could see on the screen of the roadside testing device the figures of 1, 3 and 5 but was looking at the screen from an angle and they did not show it to me or tell me anything about the result. I had smoked 10 cigarettes in the previous couple of hours and just eaten a McDonalds although did not disclose this to the police at any time. I remember the older devices had a traffic light system giving you a red, amber or green indicator. I don’t remember seeing any lights on the device so really unsure what reading they had.
6. The police could not find the keys for the car either about my person or anywhere in the vehicle.
7. Could points 5 & 6 have contributed to a decision by the police to attempt to present this situation as if I had failed to provide a specimen because there were weakenesses in the evidence for supporting other potential charges?
8. Assuming I am unable to see what evidence the police are planning to use against me is it at all likely that they will attempt to use reports and video footage from the roadside scene to sully the waters and bolster their case even if the charge is ‘failing to provide’ – I would have thought it should be all about what happened at the station but can see that they might want to paint a picture of events including observation leading to arrest and everything which followed. I am a fast driver naturally so am always at risk of being caught on video doing all of the things the police love to talk about.
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I gave up after the third paragraph.
So let me get this straight? You failed a roadside breath test but wasn't asked to provide a specimen for analysis at the station?
I find that highly unlikely, unless you weren't physically able to do so through severe intoxication or were having breathing difficulties.
Or did you do what some do, which is to provide the first specimen, saw the reading and thought 'Wow, I'm massively over, I'm not blowing a second time'?
So let me get this straight? You failed a roadside breath test but wasn't asked to provide a specimen for analysis at the station?
I find that highly unlikely, unless you weren't physically able to do so through severe intoxication or were having breathing difficulties.
Or did you do what some do, which is to provide the first specimen, saw the reading and thought 'Wow, I'm massively over, I'm not blowing a second time'?
Having skipped through your post again, you need to provide further details, the main ones being the circumstances surrounding your arrest.
We're you driving and stopped, or were you stationary and the Police stumbled upon you?
Where were the keys? What had you done with them? Did you throw them once you were stopped or did you hide them when you parked up?
The vague, sketchy details surrounding the arrest lead me to believe you were far more intoxicated than you perceive yourself to be, through drink or drugs(you mentioned 10 cigarettes, were they B&H or Reefer?).
We're you driving and stopped, or were you stationary and the Police stumbled upon you?
Where were the keys? What had you done with them? Did you throw them once you were stopped or did you hide them when you parked up?
The vague, sketchy details surrounding the arrest lead me to believe you were far more intoxicated than you perceive yourself to be, through drink or drugs(you mentioned 10 cigarettes, were they B&H or Reefer?).
We are not getting the full story here.
The roadside test ONLY allows the police to arrest you and take you to the police station for the full test. As soon as you got to the station you would have been asked to do the full breath test.
How did you come to be asked to do the roadside test ?
Were you driving ? Were you just in the car ? Is it your car ? where are the keys , did you have them when you did the roadside test ?
Is this closer to what really happened ?
You get stopped and breath tested, you see the reading is high , so you throw the keys away on the trip to the station then refuse to take the 2nd test.
The cigarettes and food you had do not effect the breath test.
The police do not have to prove anything, the fact that you did not provide a specimen without a valid reason is proof on its own. ( no court is going to belive that they did not ask you to take a test and the entire events at the police station will be on video with sound)
The roadside test ONLY allows the police to arrest you and take you to the police station for the full test. As soon as you got to the station you would have been asked to do the full breath test.
How did you come to be asked to do the roadside test ?
Were you driving ? Were you just in the car ? Is it your car ? where are the keys , did you have them when you did the roadside test ?
Is this closer to what really happened ?
You get stopped and breath tested, you see the reading is high , so you throw the keys away on the trip to the station then refuse to take the 2nd test.
The cigarettes and food you had do not effect the breath test.
The police do not have to prove anything, the fact that you did not provide a specimen without a valid reason is proof on its own. ( no court is going to belive that they did not ask you to take a test and the entire events at the police station will be on video with sound)
You need to make up your mind whether you are going to plead not guilty because you were not asked to take a test at the police station or if you are going to insist you were not driving (point six in your post).
If it is the first then, as has been said, the proceedings will almost certainly have been recorded at the police station. If it is the second then you should understand that the police are entitled to ask anybody who they have reason to believe may have been driving to take a breath test (which it seems you did anyway).
The whole affair seems very confusing to me, but in any case you are entitled to see the evidence which the CPS intends to use against you.
If it is the first then, as has been said, the proceedings will almost certainly have been recorded at the police station. If it is the second then you should understand that the police are entitled to ask anybody who they have reason to believe may have been driving to take a breath test (which it seems you did anyway).
The whole affair seems very confusing to me, but in any case you are entitled to see the evidence which the CPS intends to use against you.
The penalty for 'failure to provide' is exactly the same as if you had failed the breathalyser , an automatic ban of at least a year.
As I said the roadside test is irrelevant here it can not be used in prosecution it just tells the police if or not you have sufficient alcohol in your breath to be arrested.
We still don,t know if you were driving or just in the car for some reason.
Is it your car , if so is anyone other than you insured to drive it ? You are going o find it impossible to prov you were not driving or 'in charge of' the car if no other person is insured to drive it.
To be of any more help we need to know exactly how you came to be required to take the roadside test in the first place.
As I said the roadside test is irrelevant here it can not be used in prosecution it just tells the police if or not you have sufficient alcohol in your breath to be arrested.
We still don,t know if you were driving or just in the car for some reason.
Is it your car , if so is anyone other than you insured to drive it ? You are going o find it impossible to prov you were not driving or 'in charge of' the car if no other person is insured to drive it.
To be of any more help we need to know exactly how you came to be required to take the roadside test in the first place.
I think you have seen that you should not be conducting this case yourself but should hire a solicitor
once you have given your history to him, he will give advice on whether it is worth hiring a barrister such as .... Nick Freeman
who spends his time doing driving cases.
obviously it costs - but may be worth it if your job depends on it and so on.
In my own case - the police's blood sample was lower (by 5 units) than mine which would open the avenue on the fact that the blood wasnt stored properly [and had caused evaporation] - all this is terribly formulaic, but I couldnt show that mine (altho' higher and obviously HAD been refrigerated and capped] had also been treated correctly.
Nick F makes a lot of money from this - but it may be worth it.
(and I managed to read right through - before giving an opinion)
once you have given your history to him, he will give advice on whether it is worth hiring a barrister such as .... Nick Freeman
who spends his time doing driving cases.
obviously it costs - but may be worth it if your job depends on it and so on.
In my own case - the police's blood sample was lower (by 5 units) than mine which would open the avenue on the fact that the blood wasnt stored properly [and had caused evaporation] - all this is terribly formulaic, but I couldnt show that mine (altho' higher and obviously HAD been refrigerated and capped] had also been treated correctly.
Nick F makes a lot of money from this - but it may be worth it.
(and I managed to read right through - before giving an opinion)
I don't think we are going to see a reply from helpme12.
I think that this is pretty close to what really happened,
he got caught for DD and when he saw the breathalyser reading was very high he threw away his car keys . When he arrived at the police station he was either so drunk and abusive that they realised he would not give a specimen or simply refused to co-operate. He was then locked up until he had sobered up enough to be charged ( this is normal practice)
He has hit on the somewhat ingenious defence of insisting he was never asked to give a sample of breath. This defence is bound to fail as all custody reception / breath test areas are covered by CCTV with full sound recording. There would also have been the 2 police officers who arrested and breathalysed him and the custody sergent as witnesses to what happened.
I think that this is pretty close to what really happened,
he got caught for DD and when he saw the breathalyser reading was very high he threw away his car keys . When he arrived at the police station he was either so drunk and abusive that they realised he would not give a specimen or simply refused to co-operate. He was then locked up until he had sobered up enough to be charged ( this is normal practice)
He has hit on the somewhat ingenious defence of insisting he was never asked to give a sample of breath. This defence is bound to fail as all custody reception / breath test areas are covered by CCTV with full sound recording. There would also have been the 2 police officers who arrested and breathalysed him and the custody sergent as witnesses to what happened.
New Judge. When you say I am entitled to see the case the CPS plans to put. How do I access this information and will it be before the summons or after. If I am summoned and plead not-guilty is the case then deferred and a trial date set? Is this when I will see the CPS case or can I see it before then? Of course I would like to see what the CPS is planning to say in advance so I know whether they are playing with a straight bat or if they have major errors in the case.... and so whether I should plead guilty and plan mitigation or plead not-guilty and return for a trial.
"He has hit on the somewhat ingenious defence of insisting he was never asked to give a sample of breath. This defence is bound to fail as all custody reception / breath test areas are covered by CCTV with full sound recording. There would also have been the 2 police officers who arrested and breathalysed him and the custody sergent as witnesses to what happened."
I really hope so. Especially the sound recording and CCTV parts. You assume this is a fig leaf for *** but nobody would suffer more than me were I depending on this as my defence when it did not match the reality of the situation.
I really hope so. Especially the sound recording and CCTV parts. You assume this is a fig leaf for *** but nobody would suffer more than me were I depending on this as my defence when it did not match the reality of the situation.
At the roadside I remember seeing the blue lights far away in the distance and thought not much more of it since this isn't unusual.
After turning a couple of corners (urban setting) I realised the lights were getting closer and so pulled over. Lost my keys. Opened the door and was by the car. I cannot remember the exact orintation of all police cars and police men as it all happened fairly quickly. For a little while the police were searching for the car keys and they were talking about my McDonalds wrappers. After about 10 minutes the breathaliser turned up and as I say, when asked to blow into it I saw figures of 1, 3 and 5 on the screen, as of yet I have not been able to find out what those figures. I don't know if it is 1 in 35 or 135 or what else it could be?
TBH I'm not sure how relevant the roadside situation is? The charge is failing to provide at the station. If they are going to talk about the arrest and what happened at the scene I cannot see how that would relate to the charge. Unless they want to talk about that to paint a picture which supports their case.
The fact I'm depending on for my defence is that I was not asked if I would provide a breath sample at the station. I provided everything else so it seems silly and inconsistant for the police to insist I refused on just the one point which would give them the basis for charging me as they have.
After turning a couple of corners (urban setting) I realised the lights were getting closer and so pulled over. Lost my keys. Opened the door and was by the car. I cannot remember the exact orintation of all police cars and police men as it all happened fairly quickly. For a little while the police were searching for the car keys and they were talking about my McDonalds wrappers. After about 10 minutes the breathaliser turned up and as I say, when asked to blow into it I saw figures of 1, 3 and 5 on the screen, as of yet I have not been able to find out what those figures. I don't know if it is 1 in 35 or 135 or what else it could be?
TBH I'm not sure how relevant the roadside situation is? The charge is failing to provide at the station. If they are going to talk about the arrest and what happened at the scene I cannot see how that would relate to the charge. Unless they want to talk about that to paint a picture which supports their case.
The fact I'm depending on for my defence is that I was not asked if I would provide a breath sample at the station. I provided everything else so it seems silly and inconsistant for the police to insist I refused on just the one point which would give them the basis for charging me as they have.
as i said, if you fabricate or fail to provide facts, how do you expect any helpful answers? Lol at "lost my keys". How do you lose your keys if you are driving the car? Even if you stopped and took them out, how do you lose them - if you dropped them, pick them up! And WHY did you stop/get out when you saw flashing lights? Because you knew you'd beendrinking and wanted to avoid getting "done"?
You should not be summonsed for this matter, you should be charged and bailed to appear in court.
You should be provided with the prosecution material after your first appearance. At that appearance you will be asked to enter your plea and, probably at the same hearing, some “case management” issues will be dealt with. Among these matters is the trial date and the disclosure of the prosecution material. You may withhold your plea at this hearing but you may lose the full discount to which you are entitled for entering an early guilty plea.
If you are not represented the court's Legal Advisor has a duty to steer you through the court process, though you may be better advised to seek the services of a solicitor.
You should be provided with the prosecution material after your first appearance. At that appearance you will be asked to enter your plea and, probably at the same hearing, some “case management” issues will be dealt with. Among these matters is the trial date and the disclosure of the prosecution material. You may withhold your plea at this hearing but you may lose the full discount to which you are entitled for entering an early guilty plea.
If you are not represented the court's Legal Advisor has a duty to steer you through the court process, though you may be better advised to seek the services of a solicitor.
As you were being followed and had been seen and probably videoed driving the bit about the keys is meaningless.
Were you given another breath test before you left the police station in the morning? you should have been ,this is standard procedure to check that you are under the limit before being released.
Can you actually remember what WAS said at the police station ? . This is vital if you are going to say they did not ask you to take a breath test.
Were you given another breath test before you left the police station in the morning? you should have been ,this is standard procedure to check that you are under the limit before being released.
Can you actually remember what WAS said at the police station ? . This is vital if you are going to say they did not ask you to take a breath test.
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