Time To Cancel My Graun Subscription

[sunny-dave]

If I had a subscription to The Guardian (which I did have for many years) it would be being cancelled right now.

I've just read this 'leader' and it's possibly the most condescending, dismissive and plain wrong editorial that I've seen in a 'quality' newspaper for a long time.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/08/the-guardian-view-on-parliament-and-brexit-mps-fail-their-first-test

The total contempt for the democratic process and the desire to see the result of the referendum frustrated by MPs is quite astonishing.

When will the self-styled, self-serving metropolitan elite accept that (like it or not, and I'm not sure that I do) the country voted by a substantial majority to leave the EU and Parliament must be expected to carry through that result?

[ToraToraTora]

you actually bought it? they used to have stack for free outside the Gym I attended at lunch time. I often wondered who actually ever bought it!

[ToraToraTora]

So basically they wanted the MPs to block it and save the silly people from themselves! Glad I never actually bought it!

[ToraToraTora]

"MPs have essentially said that last year’s referendum is sovereign and that they are powerless to put their foot on the brake or choose a different route." - Bang on Grauniad, well done for seeing that!

[mikey4444]

The Guardian often frustrates me as well Dave, but what alternative do we have ?

All the Tabloids, with the exception of the "i" are just dreadful. The Thunderer can't be relied on any more, the Independent has gone and probably died from boredom. and the Telegraph is beyond the Pale !

[sunny-dave]

For the moment I'll stick to the 'i' and an occasional weekend FT for the bigger picture.

I've read The Graun since I was at school - I've never seen it quite so wrong-headed before - deeply disappointing.

[jno]

like it or not, the Guardian is correct. The "democratic process" you talk about it is not what you think it is. Britain (why am I always having to point this out to British people?) is a parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. "The people" are not. Referenda are advisory and though MPs will give them due weight they are in no way obliged to follow them. Nor have they ever been required to do what the executive - in effect, the cabinet - tells them to do.

(This is not to say MPs are somehow above the democratic process: they are subject to removal every few years.)

In this instance, the public decided what they wanted but no mention was made in the terms of the poll, or by the shifty leaders of the Brexit campaign, of how it was to be done. This is what Parliament must now sort out. At present, it looks as if MPs have decided simply to let the prime minister do what she wants without question. That is a dereliction of their duty. It continues a weakening of the power of Parliament that goes back through the Blair years to those of Thatcher.

It intrigues me that those who claim to want to restore Britain's autonomy are also those who denounce judges as public enemies, threaten to abolish the House of Lords, and generally do away with the constitution that has kept the country running for the past several centuries.

[Baldric]

We all make mistakes, difference is we don't all feel the need to go public with them.

[ToraToraTora]

yes, jno, as I have said a thousand times, referendums are advisory, technically. Do you seriously believe that any government can really ignore a referendum? Can you not see that they are, in reality, binding?

[sunny-dave]

I quote directly from the referendum leaflet, delivered by the Government to every voter :

"" A once in a generation decision

The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.
....
This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide. ""

I can't see how it can be any clearer - MPs can debate and challenge the details - but must not do as the Guardian is exhorting them and frustrate the result of the referendum.

[ToraToraTora]

"The government will implement what you decide. " - yep, pretty clear to me. jno, tell me how any government could possibly ignore the outcome of the referendum after dropping that through all our front doors?

[jno]

as Gromit has previously pointed out, there was a referendum on whether the people of Manchester should have an elected mayor. The people of Manchester voted no. The result was ignored.

"in reality binding" - nope.

Likewise, the government can promise all it wants to implement the outcome of a referendum. But the decision is for parliament, not the government.

Why are you people so ignorant of the way your country is run? I blame the education system.

[Bazile]

That is the point , isn't it ?

Dave and his mate Gideon instigated this referendum , even though there was no need to put it to the electorate .

There was no plans in place or even a thought of how a widthdrawal would be effected , following a yes vote ; simply because the aforementioned was coc*y enough to believe that the vote, would be to remain .

Thus we are now left with sorting out the process and quite rightly , by way of parliament and not by any one individual

[sunny-dave]

OK - let's play "what if" ...

Imagine if the remain campaign had won, but MPs were being encouraged to trigger Article 50 anyway - what level of outrage would we be seeing then from the same people who are currently encouraging them to block it ... ?

[jno]

"what if the British people understood the distinction between parliament and government?"

[ToraToraTora]

have a day off jno, who sits on the pot in manchester is not really in the same league as this. No one gave a rats plaster about that, not even the population of manchester!

[sunny-dave]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I understand precisely the difference - now how about you answer my hypothetical question?

[jno]

I don't think you understand it at all, sd. Otherwise you wouldn't be quoting government leaflets as if they somehow bound parliament, which is not government and is not bound by government promises.

Hypothetical answer: why would I be upset about people urging MPs to do things? That happens all the time. The Blair regime was particularly keen on doing whatever the Mail told it to. I don't recall any outrage at all on AB, from me or anyone else.

[Jackdaw33]

Wouldn't even wipe my backside with the Guardian.

[TheChair]

37% of those entitled to vote, voted for Brexit. Hardly a substantial majority.

[Bazile]

Just think we are going to have frank exchange of views from now until article 50 is triggered and then continuing on for the next 10 years or so .

This will be a rich source of material for students writing their thesis in politics and economics for years to come