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Herculis Alternative Spellings
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There's been some debate on Q&P in recent weeks on whether The Daily Telegraph will accept alternative spellings to words in the Saturday GK and Monday Herculis crosswords.
Last week, there was the question of 1 down in the Herculis: Was it Appetiser or Appetizer? The majority opinion on AB was that it was Appetiser as it was likely the crossword setter (KM?) had the English spelling in mind.
According to the answers printed today, the correct answer was Appetizer. The answers do not state "1d Appetiser/Appetizer", so clearly those of us that used the british spelling got it wrong. More importantly, it shows that a degree of flexibility on this matter is not shown by the Daily Telegraph and that alternative spellings are NOT acceptable.
I find it quite annoying to think that the people who pick the submitted crossword out of the bag or whatever can discard an otherwise correct crossword in this way.
I wonder if this issue has been taken up with the DT crossword editor.
Last week, there was the question of 1 down in the Herculis: Was it Appetiser or Appetizer? The majority opinion on AB was that it was Appetiser as it was likely the crossword setter (KM?) had the English spelling in mind.
According to the answers printed today, the correct answer was Appetizer. The answers do not state "1d Appetiser/Appetizer", so clearly those of us that used the british spelling got it wrong. More importantly, it shows that a degree of flexibility on this matter is not shown by the Daily Telegraph and that alternative spellings are NOT acceptable.
I find it quite annoying to think that the people who pick the submitted crossword out of the bag or whatever can discard an otherwise correct crossword in this way.
I wonder if this issue has been taken up with the DT crossword editor.
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Oh for crying out loud - did you read what the Telegraph crossword staff had to say about this? Alternative spellings ARE acceptable. Just because the solution does not show every acceptable answer does not mean that these would not be accepted.
How about YOU take this up with the DT crossword editor before making sweeping statements that only ONE answer is correct?
How about YOU take this up with the DT crossword editor before making sweeping statements that only ONE answer is correct?
I have raised such a query with Kate Mepham a couple of times & she will advise the telegraph to accept either if she thinks it applicable. You can enquire if doubtful of the correct alternative answer by emailing her at [email protected]
Calm down catron. Where did the DT staff say what and where Catron?
I've been doing these crosswords long enough to remember the time when answers were given as "1d Appetiser/Appetizer". They no longer do this.
Something's changed. It's not rocket science to print two possible answers is it?
Incidentally, it's not me that's making the sweeping statement that only one answer is correct - it's the compiler. That's not rocket science too.
I've been doing these crosswords long enough to remember the time when answers were given as "1d Appetiser/Appetizer". They no longer do this.
Something's changed. It's not rocket science to print two possible answers is it?
Incidentally, it's not me that's making the sweeping statement that only one answer is correct - it's the compiler. That's not rocket science too.
er no, bookend, the compiler is NOT saying there is only one correct answer - you have surmised that as there was only one answer given as the solution.
This is what the Telegraph Crossword people had to say:
Where there is an alternative spelling, the compilers try extremely hard to make sure that the ambiguity is removed by a solution that crosses it. Where there is genuine ambiguity then, yes, alternative spellings would be acceptable, but we aim for this not to happen.
Kate Fassett (Telegraph Crossword Editor)
The Weekend team strive to avoid ambiguity at all times. However, this
is sometimes unavoidable. Rest assured that where a known alternative is
used in a solution that has been sent in it will be accepted.
Unfortunately, there is no way of representing this in the solution grid
that is published the following week.
(Kate Mepham and her editor Jon Stock)
I agree that, as far as the Herculis crossword is concerned, there is space for alternative answers when the solution is published but if one does not accept what has been stated, is there really any point in doing the crossword at all?
This is what the Telegraph Crossword people had to say:
Where there is an alternative spelling, the compilers try extremely hard to make sure that the ambiguity is removed by a solution that crosses it. Where there is genuine ambiguity then, yes, alternative spellings would be acceptable, but we aim for this not to happen.
Kate Fassett (Telegraph Crossword Editor)
The Weekend team strive to avoid ambiguity at all times. However, this
is sometimes unavoidable. Rest assured that where a known alternative is
used in a solution that has been sent in it will be accepted.
Unfortunately, there is no way of representing this in the solution grid
that is published the following week.
(Kate Mepham and her editor Jon Stock)
I agree that, as far as the Herculis crossword is concerned, there is space for alternative answers when the solution is published but if one does not accept what has been stated, is there really any point in doing the crossword at all?
I appreciate the points you've made Catron, but I'm afraid that ambiguity still exists here.
Firstly, are the passages you quote personal communications? I've not seen these in print in the DT previously.
Secondly, as far as the DTGK answer grid goes, they did print both possible letters in a square at one time by placing a diagonal dividing line between the letters. I fail to see the difficulty in returning to this format as long as it only concerns two letters. Some entrants on Q&P have admitted submitting entries in this format.
Thirdly, I'm uneasy about this concept of the the DT crossword staff physically pulling out the entry from the bag or whatever themselves. How do we know this happens? Entries are sent to a PO Box which could be anywhere - possibly even operated by an agency. If these people pull out a grid that's identical to the answers provided by the setter, it's a winner. But clearly, there could be more to it than that, couldn't there?
You may consider the idea of someone else selecting the winning entry far-fetched. I'd point out that DT do it for the "Where In the World? quiz in the Travel section. Have you heard of a DT office in Chelmsford?
Surmise means to make a guess or conjecture. I've not guessed. I arrived at a conclusion based on the evidence before me. That's what we all do in life. You clearly had a different viewpoint as you seem to have sourced additional information which has clarified the position.
At the end of the day, how difficult would it be for the DT team to clarify these issues for us all? I'm not suggesting they print them every week, but at they could explain their rules on online.
Firstly, are the passages you quote personal communications? I've not seen these in print in the DT previously.
Secondly, as far as the DTGK answer grid goes, they did print both possible letters in a square at one time by placing a diagonal dividing line between the letters. I fail to see the difficulty in returning to this format as long as it only concerns two letters. Some entrants on Q&P have admitted submitting entries in this format.
Thirdly, I'm uneasy about this concept of the the DT crossword staff physically pulling out the entry from the bag or whatever themselves. How do we know this happens? Entries are sent to a PO Box which could be anywhere - possibly even operated by an agency. If these people pull out a grid that's identical to the answers provided by the setter, it's a winner. But clearly, there could be more to it than that, couldn't there?
You may consider the idea of someone else selecting the winning entry far-fetched. I'd point out that DT do it for the "Where In the World? quiz in the Travel section. Have you heard of a DT office in Chelmsford?
Surmise means to make a guess or conjecture. I've not guessed. I arrived at a conclusion based on the evidence before me. That's what we all do in life. You clearly had a different viewpoint as you seem to have sourced additional information which has clarified the position.
At the end of the day, how difficult would it be for the DT team to clarify these issues for us all? I'm not suggesting they print them every week, but at they could explain their rules on online.
What you say is all very well, bookend, but there still remains the question as to why you do not take the issue up with the DT crossword editor as you clearly have a problem with what she has to say.
If you consider that you (and others) got the answer wrong by putting appetiser, surely it means that you will simply not do the crossword again as you will simply be guessing the answer the compiler has in mind. Is that what you would prefer, rather than accepting that alternative spellings are acceptable?
Yes, I do get annoyed about this issue as you and others seem to raise this issue nearly every week and not one is prepared to actually take up the matter with the DT.
If you consider that you (and others) got the answer wrong by putting appetiser, surely it means that you will simply not do the crossword again as you will simply be guessing the answer the compiler has in mind. Is that what you would prefer, rather than accepting that alternative spellings are acceptable?
Yes, I do get annoyed about this issue as you and others seem to raise this issue nearly every week and not one is prepared to actually take up the matter with the DT.
You say that I should take the issue up with the DT crossword editor as I clearly have a problem with what she has to say.
Sorry, Catron. She's said so such thing to me in writing or otherwise. I've not read your quoted text. I also note that you appear to be reluctant to provide a link or some other method by which I can read the stuff myself.
Guessing an entry does not mean that I will not do the crossword again - that would be churlish. After all, some weeks there is no ambiguity in the puzzles. I merely object to the fact that in the absence of proof to the contrary, entries can be rejected that are technically correct.
I seem to have a doppelganger as you assert that I, personally, raise this question every week. Please provide me with the links concerned as to my knowledge, I've not done so. I can't speak for others.
As for taking the matter up with DT, please don't be presumptive and assume I've not. Again, I can't speak for others.
Sorry, Catron. She's said so such thing to me in writing or otherwise. I've not read your quoted text. I also note that you appear to be reluctant to provide a link or some other method by which I can read the stuff myself.
Guessing an entry does not mean that I will not do the crossword again - that would be churlish. After all, some weeks there is no ambiguity in the puzzles. I merely object to the fact that in the absence of proof to the contrary, entries can be rejected that are technically correct.
I seem to have a doppelganger as you assert that I, personally, raise this question every week. Please provide me with the links concerned as to my knowledge, I've not done so. I can't speak for others.
As for taking the matter up with DT, please don't be presumptive and assume I've not. Again, I can't speak for others.
on the matter of appetizer/appetiser. appetizer is an american spelling. we don't live in america. they are welcome to their spellings but there is no reason we should have to accept them; after all, we are not (yet) the 51st state. kate should be asked to avoid them like ye proverbial plague in future.
Oh dear, bookend - you ask in your original question "I wonder if this issue has been taken up with the DT crossword editor".
This clearly shows that you have not taken up the issue yourself!
Yes, I should indeed have said "you OR others" but by the very fact that you have used the words "there has been some debate in recent weeks'" shows that this is hardly the first time the issue has been raised.
Kate Fassett's response was in an e-mail to me when I raised the matter with her.
Yes, some of the points you have raised are legitimate but I still question why you would prefer to think that 'appetiser' would not have been accepted as a correct answer and bemoan the 'fact' rather than asking the DT or the compiler whether it is true or not.
I wonder if you have noticed that 7down in this week's Herculis can be spelled in two ways. I wonder which spelling the compiler will give as the 'correct' answer this time? I think if I had the viewpoint that only one spelling was correct, I would not waste my time entering but I guess thats up to you.
This clearly shows that you have not taken up the issue yourself!
Yes, I should indeed have said "you OR others" but by the very fact that you have used the words "there has been some debate in recent weeks'" shows that this is hardly the first time the issue has been raised.
Kate Fassett's response was in an e-mail to me when I raised the matter with her.
Yes, some of the points you have raised are legitimate but I still question why you would prefer to think that 'appetiser' would not have been accepted as a correct answer and bemoan the 'fact' rather than asking the DT or the compiler whether it is true or not.
I wonder if you have noticed that 7down in this week's Herculis can be spelled in two ways. I wonder which spelling the compiler will give as the 'correct' answer this time? I think if I had the viewpoint that only one spelling was correct, I would not waste my time entering but I guess thats up to you.
-- answer removed --
Oh dear, bookend - you ask in your original question "I wonder if this issue has been taken up with the DT crossword editor".
This clearly shows that you have not taken up the issue yourself!
Yes, I should indeed have said "you OR others" but by the very fact that you have used the words "there has been some debate in recent weeks'" shows that this is hardly the first time the issue has been raised.
Kate Fassett's response was in an e-mail to me when I raised the matter with her.
Yes, some of the points you have raised are legitimate but I still question why you would prefer to think that 'appetiser' would not have been accepted as a correct answer and bemoan the 'fact' rather than asking the DT or the compiler whether it is true or not.
I wonder if you have noticed that 7down in this week's Herculis can be spelled in two ways. I wonder which spelling the compiler will give as the 'correct' answer this time? I think if I had the viewpoint that only one spelling was correct, I would not waste my time entering but I guess thats up to you.
This clearly shows that you have not taken up the issue yourself!
Yes, I should indeed have said "you OR others" but by the very fact that you have used the words "there has been some debate in recent weeks'" shows that this is hardly the first time the issue has been raised.
Kate Fassett's response was in an e-mail to me when I raised the matter with her.
Yes, some of the points you have raised are legitimate but I still question why you would prefer to think that 'appetiser' would not have been accepted as a correct answer and bemoan the 'fact' rather than asking the DT or the compiler whether it is true or not.
I wonder if you have noticed that 7down in this week's Herculis can be spelled in two ways. I wonder which spelling the compiler will give as the 'correct' answer this time? I think if I had the viewpoint that only one spelling was correct, I would not waste my time entering but I guess thats up to you.
Hmm, you fascinate me Catron. Let me get this right. You imply that I can't have taken this issue up with DT crossword editor because I request comments on the matter on AB? Where's the connection? I know what I have done but I've got no idea about others.
I'm glad that you can see that your post should have said OR and not AND, but the issue over whether these matters had been raised in previous weeks was never under contention. Neither I nor you claimed otherwise. However, please don't imply that I'm the one constantly doing so.
I also appreciate that you've finally revealed that the passages you quote were a private communication between you and a member of the DT staff. It's a bit of a shame that she couldn't put these comments elsewhere for the rest of us to see so we all have the benefit of enlightenment. I've seen no one admitted that they have any talents in mind-reading on here.
Personally, I'd never have the audacity to argue a case based upon knowledge that I, and I alone had over issues such as this - how else are we to regard this communication between you and Kate Fassett? Can you not see that? Your support for her in these circumstances is quite startling.
From your fourth paragraph of your last post, It's clear that you fail to see another aspect of this issue. When there is a contentious word in the grid, yes I could email DT for clarification. However, could I expect clarification by return? It's not much use sending off a query when I don't know when they will answer? What happens over a Bank Holiday when the staff are away and the grid has to be in by Wenesday? More importantly, why should we have to put up with this when written rules would clarify it for us all? Asking sounds so simple doesn't it? Reality is something else.
Finally, I suggest you read the pertinent and erudite remarks by Sincnoel. Perhaps it would not go amiss if your Kate Fassett took them on
I'm glad that you can see that your post should have said OR and not AND, but the issue over whether these matters had been raised in previous weeks was never under contention. Neither I nor you claimed otherwise. However, please don't imply that I'm the one constantly doing so.
I also appreciate that you've finally revealed that the passages you quote were a private communication between you and a member of the DT staff. It's a bit of a shame that she couldn't put these comments elsewhere for the rest of us to see so we all have the benefit of enlightenment. I've seen no one admitted that they have any talents in mind-reading on here.
Personally, I'd never have the audacity to argue a case based upon knowledge that I, and I alone had over issues such as this - how else are we to regard this communication between you and Kate Fassett? Can you not see that? Your support for her in these circumstances is quite startling.
From your fourth paragraph of your last post, It's clear that you fail to see another aspect of this issue. When there is a contentious word in the grid, yes I could email DT for clarification. However, could I expect clarification by return? It's not much use sending off a query when I don't know when they will answer? What happens over a Bank Holiday when the staff are away and the grid has to be in by Wenesday? More importantly, why should we have to put up with this when written rules would clarify it for us all? Asking sounds so simple doesn't it? Reality is something else.
Finally, I suggest you read the pertinent and erudite remarks by Sincnoel. Perhaps it would not go amiss if your Kate Fassett took them on
I wonder if this issue has been taken up with the DT crossword editor.
Why would you make such a statement if you HAD taken up the matter with her? Come on, bookend - do try and be a little logical here! You would simply not have had any need to wonder had you yourself done so!
My support for Kate Fassett is quite startling? Why? Just because I choose to believe her when there is no logical reason why I should not? And it is not just her, it is the compiler herself, along with her editor!
Are you trying to deliberately misunderstand me? It seems you are. You know full well I do not mean check with Kate Mepham each and every time the issue of alternative spellings arise. You are the one who is saying that appetiser is a wrong answer - I am saying why did you not check with Kate before stating something as 'fact'?
My Kate? Don't be so blessed stupid, bookend. She is the Crossword Editor for the Telegraph. Where else would one naturally go for answers to issues like this?
As to Sincnoel, erudite is not what he is on this thread - appetizer is the main spelling in the OED. Perhaps you should actually look at the OED before coming to the conclusion that delta7333 supports Sincnoel!
Why would you make such a statement if you HAD taken up the matter with her? Come on, bookend - do try and be a little logical here! You would simply not have had any need to wonder had you yourself done so!
My support for Kate Fassett is quite startling? Why? Just because I choose to believe her when there is no logical reason why I should not? And it is not just her, it is the compiler herself, along with her editor!
Are you trying to deliberately misunderstand me? It seems you are. You know full well I do not mean check with Kate Mepham each and every time the issue of alternative spellings arise. You are the one who is saying that appetiser is a wrong answer - I am saying why did you not check with Kate before stating something as 'fact'?
My Kate? Don't be so blessed stupid, bookend. She is the Crossword Editor for the Telegraph. Where else would one naturally go for answers to issues like this?
As to Sincnoel, erudite is not what he is on this thread - appetizer is the main spelling in the OED. Perhaps you should actually look at the OED before coming to the conclusion that delta7333 supports Sincnoel!
The reason I asked the question in the final line of my initial post was to invite comments from others regarding the response they had received fro DT over these issues. That's it, pure and simple. My actions did not come into it.
Why did I do this? Well it's evident that the answers DT has given to previous enquiries is inconsistent. You've only got to read some of the previous posts here to see that.
Tell you what, prove it yourself next time. Phone or email the "Reader Relations " Department at the DT and ask which is the correct answer. They will tell you they'll phone back or delay sending a reply and there's every chance you'll not receive the definitive answer. This department is the go-between between readers and management of the DT. Consider yourself very lucky if you've received a reply from the crossword staff.
I'll say again, if both spellings are acceptable, why aren't they given in the answers? They were at one time although I accept you may not have been doing the grids long enough to recall. There's no excuse for it, if it was done before, it can be done now. It would display Kate's flexibility for all to see and perhaps inspire more confidence.
(continued)
Why did I do this? Well it's evident that the answers DT has given to previous enquiries is inconsistent. You've only got to read some of the previous posts here to see that.
Tell you what, prove it yourself next time. Phone or email the "Reader Relations " Department at the DT and ask which is the correct answer. They will tell you they'll phone back or delay sending a reply and there's every chance you'll not receive the definitive answer. This department is the go-between between readers and management of the DT. Consider yourself very lucky if you've received a reply from the crossword staff.
I'll say again, if both spellings are acceptable, why aren't they given in the answers? They were at one time although I accept you may not have been doing the grids long enough to recall. There's no excuse for it, if it was done before, it can be done now. It would display Kate's flexibility for all to see and perhaps inspire more confidence.
(continued)
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