What if... a plane crashed into the Atlantic?

[wingnut143]

My partner and I were watching the C4 programme a couple of weeks ago about the plane which crashed into the Hudson River in New York in January, and he said that if a plane crashed halfway across the Atlantic, basically no-one would survive. I asked him why and he said that its so far from either the UK or America, it would take too long for help to arrive and therefore unless you could hang on for around 3-4 hours, if you were injured you would most probably die. I said surely the emergency services have a plan for this and he said I doubt it. Does anyone have any theories on this? I might never fly to America again if its true!!!

[craft1948]

well wingnut spare a thought for me - I cruise from the UK to the caribbean every winter so listening to you if the ship sinks I'm bu$$ered......

[grasscarp]

Planes crossing the Atlantic are either 4 engined, so could still fly if there was an engine failure scenario, or twin engined planes like 777 and 767 operating to rules which mean they are always within reach of an airfield if they lose an engine e.g. Santa Maria, Bermuda etc.

[wingnut143]

Thanks for your answers, the're really interesting. I guess my 3/4 hour rescue time is because it takes aroud 6.5 hours to get from London to New York but if planes fly closer to other countries I suppose this doesn't really matter. I shall be showing him these messages - I knew someone had to have thought of a plan with all the planes whizzing round the world every day. I was right!!

[TWR]

Just to correct you Zacsmaster, planes do fly direct across the Atlantic we flew from Gatwick to San Juan 2 Years ago, also the Pan am jet that crashed in Lockerbie should have flown down the West country across the Atlantic but because of weather was diverted up to Scotland then Left for the USA. As regards your Q Wingnut, as said, for the miles a plane fly's & it's Millions, you have more chance getting killed in your local town walking or in your car, the latter will be first so do not worry, Iv done 2 fly's to OZ & I'm still here.

[grasscarp]

TWR the 4 engined planes fly direct..... see my answer. Also the great circle (shortest route) across the Atlantic does go up across Scotland. Get a globe and a piece of string and you see this illustrated. This is the usual routing.

[grasscarp]

This is only a very basic discussion here, but the regular trips across the Atlantic are on paths called NAT (for North Atlantic) tracks. The are a set of tracks which are based on the most advantageous winds on the day and normal operations take routes out of the UK to link up with the tracks.....

[coccinelle]

Most accidents are on take off and landing anyway so very little risk of coming down in mid-Atlantic. I have noticed in the on-plane security run we're entitled to life-belts, whistles, lights etc but not a parachute. Now, when travelling say from Paris to Marseille I wonder how this could help me????????? do they seek water out to land into? Just a thought..........

[grasscarp]

No, the pilot doesnt seek out water. The Hudson landing was because he had run out of options and could not make it to an airport. The instructions about life rafts and life vests are in case for some reason you ended up in the water. In the UK on an internal flight for example ex Heathrow this is in case there is a crash immediately after take off and you accidentally came down in the reservoir.

[Clanad]

The NAT/MNPS referenced by grasscarp are flown day in and day out by twin engined transport aircraft. I've personally piloted numerous B757, 767 and 727 (3 engines) on such crossings. They are allowed, depnding on the airline and it's certification to be as much as 180 minutes from a suitable landing site. Most are, however certified for 120 minutes. That certification is known as ETOPS (Extended Range Twin Engine Operations). The Boeing Triple-7 was the first twinengined aircraft to achieve the 180 minutes ETOPS.
All appropriately certified aircraft fly directly on tracks that operate in a westbound flow during daylight hours and. at night, the tracks reverse to flow eastbound towards Europe. The actual track can shift several times during the day or night period since they are dictated by the jetstream.
The process for achieving the maximum ETOPS is extensive, expensive and time consuming for the airlines. I, personally have never experienced and engine failure in a crossing, but a friend of many years did in a Boeing 767. All in all, it was a routine experience...
Part of the flight planning for a crossing requires extensive flightplanning and agreement between the Pilot-in-command and the Dispatcher as to routes, altitudes and expected groundspeed...
As an aside, all extended overwater flights are required to have adequate and extensively equipped life rafts for all passengers. The slides that are deployed for emergency evacuation are some 40 feet long and are also well equipped emergency life rafts. You saw some of th epassengers in one of these in the Hudson River landing...

[grasscarp]

Lovely response Clanad. I have been in flight planning for past 20+ years. Am visiting Shanwick (3rd time) at the end of the month. Also fly but only occasionally and nothing bigger than the HS125.

[Clanad]

Do you fly the Hawker for a corporation, Grasscarp?

[grasscarp]

Well I did, as a freelance, but things have been very quiet lately even for the full timers. Have hawker and kingair on my licence.

[Clanad]

We don't do the King Air as a type here in the U.S., unless it's one that goes more than 12,500 pounds... I have the BE-1900 as well and, surprisingly it's nominally called a Super King Air... Have friends that fly the Hawker Beechcraft 900XP...They do Saudia Arabia a lot...

[Postdog]

Of course all this assumes a perfect flat belly level landing, which has only been done the once anyway, on a reasonably calm river.

The atlantic is likely to be a different kettle of fish, and even bringing the plane down perfect, chances are the power of the ongoing waves will break the plane up.

[grasscarp]

Here the BE20 is called the Super King Air too! You cant log a thing without it on your licence. I didnt realise you were the other side of the pond. I used to work in flight planning for the "worlds favourite airline" (lol) and pilots got they were given as a flight plan. i.e. no say in the routeing!

[Clanad]

For postdog... I'd offer that there have been, , historically speaking, a number of successful mid-sea ditchings. There haven't been any of memory in jet aircraft, but that's simply because they've been so dependable. We do demonstrate ditching in the simulator though. The landings are made parallell to the wave and troughs, however, not into the swell direction. The suggested technique is to place the aircraft on the back side of a swell or wave. Granted, that would be difficult to do at night. However, I've noticed a lot of luminescence under certain conditions allowing one to determine the run direction of the swells.
That's interesting grasscarp... The BE-20 (or King Air 200 as it's known here) weighs just shy of 12,500 so doesn't require a typr rating. The military version of the same aircraft though can go to nearly 15,000 pounds. ...
Here, the flight plan is acquired from dispatch so they've gone over it before hand, but I've often discussed alternatives withthe dispatch guy (or woman) and we've concurred that a different routing was a better idea. Dispatch could overule a pilots decision but that's uncommon (due, of course to the superior airmanship of the pilot!). Nice talking to other aviators,by the way...Blue skies!

[dsimiller]

We often fly over Southern Greenland when we go to USA and Canada West Coasts,Is there anywhere in Greenland that could take a 747/777 etc.in the case of an emergency landing,or would it mean turning back towards Iceland or trying to get to Newfoundland?
Did not think anything about Atlantic ditchings until reading this thread.
Regards

[grasscarp]

DSIMiller. Greenland has Narssarsuaq and Kangerlussuaq which can both be used as alternates for diversions. Otghers are Gander, Rekjavik, Iqaluit and Keflavik, which does get used every 2-3 months for either sickness on board or mechanical concerns type diversions.

[dsimiller]

Thanks grasscarp,I'd never heard of the last two.Wont worry quite so much now.