To lie or not to lie

[willspal]

that is my big question.

We have for the first time ever booked our summer hols for the 12th July (school finishes on the 21st)

Its all booked and paid for and the Primary school does not have a problem with my 5 year old taking the last week and a bit off BUT I have heard that my Sons Secondary school (he is 14) might not be so easy going.

Its a school that is oversubscribed and we are out of the catchment area and struggled to get him a place.

I have heard that they 'could' sanction the holiday but then inform us on our return he has lost his place and we would have to look for another school which is a big no no for me.

We only booked the hols for this date as he has done his Year 9 Sats and we always see the last week of term wasted with them sat around watching videos so I did not think he would be missing that much.

Do I lie and just ring up the morning we go away and say he has got cronic heyfever (which he does suffer very badly from and the school and Docs know this) or do I be open and honest now and take a massive risk. Have to admit I am more in favour of lying as scared stiff he will loose his place but I always feel you get found out lying and then you look even worse.

What would anyone else do.

WP

[JudgeJ]

There is a third alternative which you may not have considered but which I heartily recommend. Cancel the holiday, get back what money you can and put any losses down to experience.

Your pang of conscience and the thought process you have just gone through should have taken place before you decided to take your son out of school. You obviously want your child to receive a good education, as you are fearful of him losing his place at a school where you struggled to get him in. However, you seem to think that the last eight days of term (more than 10% of it) are a �waste�. If everybody else felt likewise and took their children out of school as you are doing, the effective last week of term would be shifted back eight days. Presumably the week before that would then become a �waste� as well.

Schools provide a minimum of twelve weeks holiday a year into which parents should be expected to accommodate their holidays. The issue of children taking holidays in term time is fast becoming a national scandal, and one which only seems to be prevalent in this country.

You should consider your son�s education as paramount over almost everything else, and certainly over holidays. You are being unfair to (in order of importance) your son, his classmates, his school, his teachers, the taxpayer and other holidaymakers who take their breaks in term time so as not to be troubled by children.

[gessoo]

Don't forget JudgeJ that some families cannot take their holidays during school holidays. Some industries, including many farmers specify when holidays must be taken, and often the summer is ruled out.

Having worked in schools for years and also being a Mum I think it will not hurt one bit to take a holiday at this time.

My own child's education was paramount and he did exceedingly well at school. But a holiday is one time when children can be with all the family (and that is an important thing as well) and employment must be taken into consideration too. I would agree that missing the last week of term will not jeopardise his education or inconvenience the school. However, I wouldn't lie about it. I would discuss the problem with the school.

However, if he is likely to lose his place then I suppose you will have to consider giving up your holiday.

[tigerthecat]

Does your son have a good attendance record. If it is then don't worry. Go and see the Head?deput/Year Head and talk to them explain it is a one off and any other reasons. If he doesn't then lie. This is a week not a term and its secondary school. Go have a fantastic time enjoy having time with your children. Enjoy !

[kazza12345]

personally i would lie

[gessoo]

coward. lol ;o). Well in truthfullness I might too!

[JudgeJ]

The inability to take holidays within school holiday periods (and so perhaps be unable to take holidays with your children) is something to be considered before having children at all. And in any case it has not been suggested by willspal that that is the situation here.

We have a situation in England where tens of thousands (the government�s numbers, not mine) of children are removed from school to take holidays during term time. They are not all the children of parents whose own holidays are so restricted as you describe, gessoo. At the same time we have a government which states that tackling truancy is one of its (many) top priorities.

I know that "authorised" leave is not classed as truancy. Nonetheless, it is difficult for schools to impress upon their pupils that they should not play truant when those same pupils see their classmates removed from school to go to Majorca for a fortnight. They will be more inclined to think nothing of taking a few days off to roam around the local shopping centre.

The effect is the same � the missing pupils must be brought up to speed upon their return. This is an unnecessary burden on the school as a whole and on their classmates in particular.

As I said in my earlier post, this seems a phenomenon peculiar to Britain, and more particularly England. If you travel abroad during term time, virtually the only children you see on holiday are English. Again, looking at the figures, It is less likely that pupils at fee-paying schools will indulge in this practice. It could be that these schools have tighter rules in the granting of "authorised" leave. Then again, it may have something to do with the fact that their parents may well calculate how much ten days education costs them out of their fees.

[kazza12345]

or it might be because they have longer holidays and can go outside of the hugely price hiked period?

[Pippa68]

I think providing it isn't a regular occurance it's fine ~ and as tigerthecat has said, providing the child has a good attendance record the school shouldn't have a problem with it.

The Headteacher at my daughters school has issued a memo to parents letting us know that she frowns upon holidays taken during term time ~ she even gave us details of holiday companies who were prepared to give discounts for holidays taken during the school holidays. These were all for holidays abroad, so pretty expensive in the first place and still way over the cost for holidays taken during term time.

We have always taken our holidays during school holidays ~ mainly because my husbands job dictates we do. However I have taken the odd long weekend or day off for a trip (about 4 times in 15 years!) when it has been a special occasion..and without a frown from the school.

I wouldn't lie though ~ discussion with the Head Teacher is the best way forward.

[Hellion]

Judge J you are being very harsh you are being very judge mental - I see your point BUT there are people who, in my opinion quite wrongly, charge HUGE amounts extra for 'school' holidays and some very hard working people simply cannot afford to go during those times.

I would discuss it with the school, ask them to tell you honestly that if you took your child out of school would you be penalised and if they say 'yes' then reconsider your holiday. Holidays are of huge value to a child, it's precious family time that can also be educational too.

[willspal]

Thankyou for all replies.

I will not cancel the holiday as we can't afford to loose so much money. Yes hindsight is a wonderful thing but its booked now and I can't see my husband smiling at the thought of loosing nearly �2,000.

My son has missed about 5 days school in the 3 years he has attended and has yet to even have a detention so I think we are doing OK in that department.

To give myself a little backup my husband has been working away 6 days a week since the start of this year and we have not had any other holiday.

Also last year my son spent the last 2 weeks of the Summer Term watching DVD's and just generally doing nothing, hence I thought lets save ourself �456.79 (thats how much we saved by going earlier) and book our holiday earlier.

Another point is many holiday companies consider an 11 year old to be an adult, some companies go for 12 and some 14. Is that not one very huge rip off and v v unfair to the advergage family. We have had to pay for his air fare as though he was an adult. That needs clamping down on by the Goverment (or somebody)

Anyway enough excuses for myself I will make an appointment with the Head and see what he says, it is best to be honest I guess.

I would hazard a guess that most pupils at Private Schools are not taken out during term time because of the fees that are paid, why would you pay XYZ a term and then take your child away for 2 weeks.

WP

[mycats]

Personally, if it the first time you have done this, I would just lie. If you ask first, and they say no, it will be VERY obvious that you are lying when he is off that week. If you tell the truth your holiday will be ruined because you will be worrying about what will happen when you get back.

[meltoadhall]

if you can get in writing that you would not lose his place then take him - otherwise i have to say i would lie. i have no chioce when i take my holidays and this year i have got the middle weeks of august.

i would love to even have the choice of taking them out of school and agree that prices are so far out of our budget in august that we may not even be going away and certainly not abroad.

go for it.

[gessoo]

Judge J, perhaps the same schools should impress on their teachers the importance of not taking time off for 'sickness' during school terms. As I said before, I have worked in schools and the amount of teaching staff that take time off by feigning illness or because they feel a little stressed out is very high. More valuable school lesson time is wasted because of teacher absence than through taken a week or two of school to have family holiday.

As far people deciding they shouldn't have children at all if they want to take holidays out of school time - well I can't believe someone who usually makes very good postings has actually said that. It's certainly not on most people's list of consideration when deciding to have children.

Education is so much more than schooling. Children benefit from their holidays and spending time with their families and it makes them far more rounded as individuals.

[gessoo]

You don't need to justify your familys need for a holiday to the school willspal. You are doing the right thing for your family and it won't hurt your son.

The sort of absenteeism that causes real problems in persistent truanting one or two days a week, not a child that has a week off for a holiday at the end of summer term when it's mostly used for activities.

I'm afraid too many teachers are rather intimidating and would like to have authority over parents as well as the children.

[gessoo]

Willspal, I can assure you children from private schools are often taken out of school during term time, basically because for the most part the fees don't pose a problem for their parents. The schools obviously don't care either - as long as the fees keep rolling in they will not upset the parents.

[Clanad]

So what are you teaching your child about lying? He is certainly going to know what you've done and, in fact, you are going to make him an accomplice. He'll need to remember, for at least next year and possibly many more, that he wasn't home ill but on vacation. He'll learn early, then to try to keep his stories straight, not only with the administration but also his classmates. Which will produce an interesting dilemma should he lie to you and you attempt to apply discipline...
I'm siding with JudgeJ on this one...

[gessoo]

That's so true Clanad. I do agree with you about the lying, though I can't agree with JudgeJ about the other issues.

Can you imagine, the poor boy wouldn't even be able to discuss what a lovely holiday he had with his school mates for fear of being found out.

[mimififi]

I would arrange an appointment with the head of year and speak to them about your predicament. I would explain about the disjointed family life that you have had to endure this year and how you feel that this has had an impact on your son. I would also ask them for the relevent work for you son and book list to take with you or to complete over the holiday. This will do two things: 1, it will illustrate a good compromise between you and the school in as much as his education being paramount; 2, it will most likely culminate in a statement such as "Well, there isn't any work being set at the moment, so there isn't anything to give him." Obviously this will be shocking to you, and give you further fuel for you to question the school as to why this would be unacceptable. However, they may well give you the work to do, in which case, you must obviously, do it.

I worked as a teacher in secondary school and I have to say we did very little in the last week other than tie up loose ends and give work back. Not least of all also because all the kids were cream crackered and not capable of working. The school structure is ridiculous and roll on the 4 term year.

However, honesty is the best policy. Frankly to remove you would be one heck of alot of paper work for someone to do in the summer break!

However, I would not do this, but then again, I home educate my children so we go on vacation whenever we like, hehehe.

[MrsJo49155]

Found this about the law surrounding school holidays in term time and as you are not having more than 4 weeks away cant see that they can take you off the roll and insist you go to another school! (see last paragraph)

The law does not say that parents have an automatic
right to take their child out of school for holidays during
term-time.
However, in exceptional circumstances school may
authorise, in advance, a request for a period of leave
of up to ten days in any year. The request for leave
must come from a parent with whom the child normally
resides, and must be for the purpose of an annual
family holiday.
If a child then stays away from school for more than
the authorised period this must be recorded as
unauthorised absence and could be quoted in a
prosecution for poor attendance.
If the child is away from school for a total of four weeks
or more, the school may have to take the child off roll
unless there is a good reason for the continued
absence, such as illness. In these circumstances it is
up to the parent to inform the school as once removed
from roll, there is no guarantee that the child will regain
a place at the same school.

[THECORBYLOON]

Why do folk complain about holiday firms charging extra during school holidays? Could it not be they are charging less outwith the holiday periods? As for the age at which a child is considered to be an adult, that is up to the individual companies. The way folk speak, it's as if there are only one or two companies from which to choose. You are not compelled to go with any particular company, why not do it yirsel and use the internet?