Editor's Blog5 mins ago
When Does A Bequest Actually Take Place ?
The scenario: WR writes a valid will. The will states that a rental property owned by WR will go to legatee LE, who is also the executor of the will.
WR dies. LE goes immediately to the bank, being the executor, gives formal notice of WR's death by producing the will and death certificate, and closes all WR's accounts. 2 days later, LE discovers that a rental payment is due from the tenants of the property, goes to the tenants and claims the payment direct. Tenants refuse, in spite of seeing the death certificate, the will and the bank's letter of confirmation, saying that until further notice, they go on paying as before.
Then what happens, bearing in mind that WR's accounts are now closed ? If the money does get credited to the dead person, will if get swallowed up in burial expenses, ( etc) or can the legatee claim the money in due course ?
WR dies. LE goes immediately to the bank, being the executor, gives formal notice of WR's death by producing the will and death certificate, and closes all WR's accounts. 2 days later, LE discovers that a rental payment is due from the tenants of the property, goes to the tenants and claims the payment direct. Tenants refuse, in spite of seeing the death certificate, the will and the bank's letter of confirmation, saying that until further notice, they go on paying as before.
Then what happens, bearing in mind that WR's accounts are now closed ? If the money does get credited to the dead person, will if get swallowed up in burial expenses, ( etc) or can the legatee claim the money in due course ?
Answers
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There is something wrong with the story
I imagine you are NOT LE
LE when he FROZE the account not closed it ( so the money is there but inoperative ) should have foreseen this and opened a WR decd executors account. I am surprised to hear that the account has been closed and not frozen Bank Mgrs have lots of practice repelling would be beneficiaries getting their hot little hands on the mun-mun before the legal niceties have been carried out
LE should know that he is acting as executor and not qua beneficiary and if he doesnt he needs to read all the URLs Chris and myself have given executors on this site. It is obvious that IHT needs to be taken into account as there is a house involved. all the urls have a title like: what to do in the event of a death .....
actually the bank will send back the payment if they try to do it to the dead man's account - rent cheques should be made out to the "executors of the late WR" and then paid into the executors' account. This will keep the deceased's affairs separate from the LE personal bits
Title in the property doesnt vest in LE until probate has been granted.
LE quite honestly should know this - and if he doesnt he should see a probate lawyer
There are rules for this
LE should follow them
It is clear that the tenants think that LE is trying to pull a fast one - and clearly they have a point - note they havent refused to pay rent they are insisting that they pay the proper rep of the dead man on earth
honestly your last paragraph ...
all LE has to do is follow the steps or rules laid down in the event of a testators death and he (LE) gets it all in the end. He (LE) is trying to short circuit everything pull a fast one and the tenants seem to have rumbled his little game
I think his tenants have behaved .... prudently
I imagine you are NOT LE
LE when he FROZE the account not closed it ( so the money is there but inoperative ) should have foreseen this and opened a WR decd executors account. I am surprised to hear that the account has been closed and not frozen Bank Mgrs have lots of practice repelling would be beneficiaries getting their hot little hands on the mun-mun before the legal niceties have been carried out
LE should know that he is acting as executor and not qua beneficiary and if he doesnt he needs to read all the URLs Chris and myself have given executors on this site. It is obvious that IHT needs to be taken into account as there is a house involved. all the urls have a title like: what to do in the event of a death .....
actually the bank will send back the payment if they try to do it to the dead man's account - rent cheques should be made out to the "executors of the late WR" and then paid into the executors' account. This will keep the deceased's affairs separate from the LE personal bits
Title in the property doesnt vest in LE until probate has been granted.
LE quite honestly should know this - and if he doesnt he should see a probate lawyer
There are rules for this
LE should follow them
It is clear that the tenants think that LE is trying to pull a fast one - and clearly they have a point - note they havent refused to pay rent they are insisting that they pay the proper rep of the dead man on earth
honestly your last paragraph ...
all LE has to do is follow the steps or rules laid down in the event of a testators death and he (LE) gets it all in the end. He (LE) is trying to short circuit everything pull a fast one and the tenants seem to have rumbled his little game
I think his tenants have behaved .... prudently
Perhaps I should have mentioned that there are other heirs involved, who inherit money and things other than the rental property. LE hopes to establish ownership of the rent from the date of the death, so no rent money, which accumulates until probate is granted, ends up being divided among all the heirs, or put towards paying off any debts of the deceased.
being kind, maybe the LE is confused by the fact that he is wearing 2 hats. As the executor, he can certainly go to the tenants and give them details of the account to which the rent should be paid which, as has been said, should be an executor’s account. He can’t “ring fence” that money. Once he has probate and all bills and debts are paid, then he can then distribute the estate in accordance with the will and legally assume title to the property. At that point, he then becomes entitled to receive the rent.
well this is a law thread and the answer is
http://
Queensland commissioner v Livingston
answers the question where does title/ownership go in the purgatory period between death and probate ?
as you know judges go on and on and the pithy bit of the decision is almost this
The estate of a deceased which devolves on personal representatives comes to them ‘virtute officii . . in full ownership, .....’ but they hold the estate ‘for the purpose of carrying out the functions and duties of administration, not for [their] own benefit’.
that is my para 3 - erm because I knew of the case
http://
Queensland commissioner v Livingston
answers the question where does title/ownership go in the purgatory period between death and probate ?
as you know judges go on and on and the pithy bit of the decision is almost this
The estate of a deceased which devolves on personal representatives comes to them ‘virtute officii . . in full ownership, .....’ but they hold the estate ‘for the purpose of carrying out the functions and duties of administration, not for [their] own benefit’.
that is my para 3 - erm because I knew of the case
I think LE has to get on with the administration of the estate
The quicker he does it ( according to English Law and not his own fantasies ) the quicker he erm ring fences the rent he believes are his
at present he has to act as executor - and is the representative on earth of the dead man so the rents form part of the estate and have to be dealt with according to the terms of the will ....of course the beneficiaries could all agree that the rents are his but it would also be sensible to agree on the tax position for that portion of the estate ( does he pay that portion or do they ? )
and yeah of course the estate debts have to be settled before distribution of the assets left over - the rules are straightforward and sensible. Funeral costs dont " swallow up " estates and beneficiaries never seem to want to bury the dead man but dont mind getting his money later.
LE has to bear in mind there is an income tax return for WR income up to April 5 2015 due in tomorrow and then another from April 5th 2015 to his date of death - both of which will have balancing amounts due from rents which will come from the estate and not him I imagine
LE has to focus more on the admin of the estate and less on ring-fencing his own interests - [ in wills cases there is always an element of this is my share without tax of course and the rest of you can go hang ]
The quicker he does it ( according to English Law and not his own fantasies ) the quicker he erm ring fences the rent he believes are his
at present he has to act as executor - and is the representative on earth of the dead man so the rents form part of the estate and have to be dealt with according to the terms of the will ....of course the beneficiaries could all agree that the rents are his but it would also be sensible to agree on the tax position for that portion of the estate ( does he pay that portion or do they ? )
and yeah of course the estate debts have to be settled before distribution of the assets left over - the rules are straightforward and sensible. Funeral costs dont " swallow up " estates and beneficiaries never seem to want to bury the dead man but dont mind getting his money later.
LE has to bear in mind there is an income tax return for WR income up to April 5 2015 due in tomorrow and then another from April 5th 2015 to his date of death - both of which will have balancing amounts due from rents which will come from the estate and not him I imagine
LE has to focus more on the admin of the estate and less on ring-fencing his own interests - [ in wills cases there is always an element of this is my share without tax of course and the rest of you can go hang ]
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