No way, Jose

[AllYourBase]

Where/when/how did the phrase, 'No way, Jose' originate?

[Quizmonster]

The basic phrase, 'no way', is itself relatively modern, having first appeared in print in an American magazine in 1975. It had made the journey to Britain by 1977. 'Only Fools and Horses' was first broadcast only four years later, in 1981, and that is the programme I most associate with 'no way, Jos�' in the words of Del-Boy. I should not be surprised, therefore, if John Sullivan - the scriptwriter - had invented it specifically for the series.

[Quizmonster]

On thinking this over later, it occurs to me that Del-Boy used to say: "No way, Pedro", but wasn't this just his daft variation on Rodney's - or some other character's - use of the original: "No way, Jos�"?

[smorodina]

Friends of mine were using the phrase 'no way' when I lived in the north in 1973 to 1975 so its use in this country pre-dates the above reference, and I'm sure the phrase 'no way Jose' was in common usage well before the 'Fools and Horses' used it.

[Quizmonster]

You may possibly be right, Smorodina, but - if the phrase was that common - it's surely odd that it never found its way into print anywhere in this country prior to 1977. Strange, too, that it appeared in print in the USA before here, especially given that it actually sounds like a typical Americanism rather than a British idiom.

I based my response on the material about the phrase as it appears in The Oxford English Dictionary - generally regarded as the 'bible' in matters of etymology and historical word/phrase-development. The 1977 example - the first to be recorded in UK - was in a newspaper report of a speech given by a union official who claimed that there was 'no way' there would be a strike that would affect old people. Clearly, it might have been around in speech prior to 1977, but not for long without a showing in writing, I suspect.

It would be interesting to hear what actual evidence you have for believing the 'Jos�' version predates 'Only Fools', too.

[smorodina]

I didn't say it was not an Americanism - in fact, that is why I remember so clearly - I found it a very annoying phrase for my friends to use precisely because I considered it an Americanism. This suggests it was in common American use much earlier than that. I don't really see what its lack of printed evidence has to do with it. It can take years for slang to move from cult usage to mainstream. As to the other phrase, I cannot provide evidence - any more than you have - that it did or did not originate in Only Fools and Horses, but I feel sure I knew of it prior to its inclusion in that series.

[Quizmonster]

I still find it extremely improbable that not one of the northern novelists and playwrights - of whom there were many working in the early 70s - ever put the two-word phrase into the mouth of a character. Such people tend to try to make their dialogue as realistic and district-relevant as possible. It's such a short, snappy idiom and can be used in such multitudes of situations it simply defies belief that no-one employed it in writing if it was current in speech.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'northern', but surely some Liverpudlian accused - when asked by the prosecutor: "It was at this point, was it not, that you removed Mr Jones's wallet?" - would have replied: "No way!" In which case, the phrase would have appeared in written court records. Why weren't crowds at Old Trafford and St James's Park yelling: "No way, ref!" in which case it would probably have appeared in newspaper match reports.

In any case, it seems you now agree that the two-word version of the phrase first appeared in the USA, which was my main point in the first place. The earliest evidence of it remains there in the early 70s, which is also what I claimed, thus answering the 'where' and 'when' elements of the question.

Moving on, above, to the 'Jos�' version, I did not claim I had evidence, but merely said I wouldn't be surprised if the 'Only Fools' scriptwriter had invented it. I still wouldn't.