Wales Organ Donations Rise In Year After Consent Law

[mikey4444]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-38144547

"The Welsh Government says more lives have been saved since Wales became the first country in the UK to introduced a deemed consent system"

I seem to recall a long debate about this here on AB, but if more lives are being saved, then I can't see this as being anything other than a success.

[gness]

Well done Wales! Nobody who has seen the result of an organ transplant can say this is a bad thing....and is it so difficult to opt out if you really want to hang on to your organs after death?

And I'll bet that those who are against it and saying it's theft wouldn't, if they were in need of a transplant, turn down a deemed consent organ...x

[mikey4444]

Gness....a few years ago, I had a client that desperately needed a kidney transplant. He was on dialysis 2-3 times a week, which was slowly wearing him out. I called at his house after not have much in the way of contact with him for a year, and the transformation was dramatic......since his transplant, he as 100% changed. He could go on holiday for the first time in many years.

[pixie374]

I've seen that too, mikey and have been on the register as long as I can remember, but this really doesn't seem right to me. Yes, ask when they are 18.

[gness]

That's what happened with us, Mikey.....dialysis is horrid and many folk have no life....the immediate difference when you receive a kidney if fantastic.... even just to be able to go on holiday with your family is wonderful....or simply having a pee after so many years.....☺

I witnessed the transformation too when MrsO had her transplant.....such a difference.......you have to experience it to understand....x

[anneasquith]

If your Welsh opt out . I doubt it's difficult.

[pixie374]

That isn't the point though... it isn't informed xinsent- or any consent. It also affects the way people die. My friend's mother was kept on life support longer for her organs to be viable. But she had made that choice.

[Mamyalynne]

I have a dear friend on Dialysis twice a week, she's on the transplant list - though she doesn't think she should be at 73 with a few other health issues.

I know how hard it is for her to cope, draining.

[gness]

Pixie, nobody should be taken by surprise....it's been discussed....families will have discussed it more since this law came into being....it will also remove the grey area we have here when families just don't know how to respond at a really dreadful time....

Look at it another way too......It costs about £35,000 a year to dialyse a person....MrG was costing much more than that. More transplants would be quite a saving....x

[pixie374]

I totally agree, gness. It's the lack of consent that makes me uncomfortable though. Some organs have a very small window of when they can be transplanted (up to an hour for at least one, as far as they were told) which means keeping someone alive while the medical team get in, the recipient arrives and everything is got ready, before letting them die. Are they all aware of that? Surely a discussion and direct question is fairer.

[gness]

If I lived in Wales, Pixie I'd either opt out or make myself aware of what not opting out means.

My children are aware of my wishes and if that means keeping me alive until the recipient/s are ready...well that's part of donating organs and we're fine with that...x

[pixie374]

Me too.... as long as every adult in Wales has the full and correct information and understands it -fair enough. But I think you can only know that by asking them, so a box to tick yes or no wouldn't be difficult.

[New Judge]

"it will also remove the grey area we have here when families just don't know how to respond at a really dreadful time...."

So basically, the State makes the decision for you?

I don't like the idea of the State (any state) taking control, by default, of people's remains. Many people (me included) don't care too much about what happens to them after death. But quite a few (and their families) do. The decision to donate one's organs should be a positive decision made voluntarily. Nobody should have to opt out of a system that takes posession of one's remains. The State does not own its citizens.

There are a number of practical problems (which may have been addressed. I don’t know because I have not studied the details of the Welsh system). What happens if I, from England and one who has not “opted out” should move to Wales and die the next day? Do my surviving relatives, in their grief, have to show that I am a recent immigrant and perhaps not subject to the Welsh regime. But my biggest worry surrounds the ineptitude that accompanies anything the State has its hands in. Under the “opt in” rules, when body snatchers have their eyes on a body for plunder, they have to have positive evidence that the deceased agreed to leave his body for spares. When State ineptitude loses the documents that the deceased completed to opt in, his parts remain intact. No evidence, no bowels and giblets. Under the Welsh regime when the same ineptitude materialises the very opposite prevails.

There is one other issue and that is the fact that this new regime has been implemented under devolved powers. No doubt it comes under the umbrella of “health” which is a devolved matter. However, this has nothing to do with health. It is to do with death and the treatment of remains. It is yet another example of the chaos that has ensued from the ridiculous devolution arrangements introduced by the Blair regime. This is clearly a UK issue which should be determined by the UK Parliament.

I have no moral objection to organ donation provided the donors positively volunteer to have their organs taken after death. To “presume consent” is given by those who die without troubling to sign something to the contrary is simply the State taking things to which it is not entitled.

[Mamyalynne]

The message re Organ transplantation has always been clear - talk to your family/close friends about your decision on the topic.

If we all did this then it wouls be simpler.

The new Welsh law states.

// You will be treated as though you want to be an organ donor unless:
you have registered a decision to be a donor (opted in) or
you have registered a decision not to be a donor (opted out) or
you have appointed a representative to make a decision about consent on your behalf or
you lack capacity to understand the new deemed consent system or
you have told someone close to you that you object and they raise this after your death.//


So if your family knew and your scenario became true then that last point would come into play.

[New Judge]

Thanks for the explanation, mamy.

But my point still stands. None of the five scenarios you describe apply to me; I have not opted in; I have not opted out; I have not appointed someone to make a decision on my behalf; I do not lack the capacity to make such a decision; I have not discussed this matter with anybody close to me.

So… If I’m in England I get buried or cremated intact whereas if I’m in Wales my offal is up for grabs. Are you suggesting I should discuss this with my relatives before I go to Cardiff Arms Park to watch the rugby? This is not a matter of healthcare (which is devolved to Wales). I’m dead so how can my health be a concern for the Welsh Assembly and its lackies? This is simply a matter of the Welsh government assuming ownership of my cadaver without my express permission.

Your explanation still does not demonstrate what should happen if I (a resident of England) should be unfortunate enough to die whilst temporarily west of the Severn Bridge (with none of the five scenarios fulfilled by me because as far as I am concerned I don’t have to comply with any of them to see my body disposed of in its entirety). The whole thing is a complete mess and is brought about by (a) local politicians having ideas above their station by assuming ownership of people’s remains and (b) by the devolution nonsense making English people potentially subject to local bye-laws should they be unfortunate enough to die “abroad” (when in fact they are still in the United Kingdom).

The default position should be that people’s remains are dealt with intact. They should not have to take any action to ensure this is so. Only if they explicitly provide their permission for parts to be removed should that be allowed.

[gness]

No....removing the grey area is not having the state make the decision, NJ.... Removing the grey area is getting families to discuss this at a time when emotions don't come into it....

If you have no moral objection to donating your organs then tell your family now......then if and when you move to Wales there won't be any problem, will there....x

[vetuste_ennemi]

//If you have no moral objection to donating your organs then tell your family now......then if and when you move to Wales there won't be any problem, will there....x//

Don't think you've understood the point being made, Gness.
Stick to Joan Baez.

[gness]

I understand it far better than you, VE....far better......x

[New Judge]

"If you have no moral objection to donating your organs then tell your family now.."

I don't think you do understand the point, gness.

It has nothing to do with my own view on organ donation. I should not have to take any action whatsoever to ensure my remains stay intact. I should not have to opt out of anything; I should not have to discuss it with anybody. Only if I want to donate my organs should I need to take any action. That is the position in the rest of the UK (and probably, though I have not checked thoroughly, in most of the "civilised" world apart from Sweden and Spain). It should be a choice for me to make without reference to anybody else and only if I explicitly give my consent should my body be plundered.

In short, the Welsh Assembly has presumed ownership of all dead bodies unless it has evidence that the deceased has "opted out" of being used for spares. You may find that acceptable; I certainly do not.

[sunny-dave]

I entirely understand your point NJ - I happen not to agree with it, but that's what AB is about.

Personally, I see no problem with a (properly advertised) opt-out policy applying to permanent residents of Wales - but that's just my opinion.

Broadening the debate slightly, I think there are two questions that everyone should need to answer :


1. Will I donate my organs after death?

2. Will I hope/expect to receive an organ if one of mine fails?


To me, yes/yes is fine as is no/no.

yes/no is odd, but very altruistic and acceptable

no/yes is just plain hypocrisy and should not be allowed to be a valid choice in a civilised society.