Is The Manchester Bomber A Martyr Or A Murderer?

[Khandro]

It seems it depends on your point of view;
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2017/manchester-bomber-martyr-murderer

[Khandro]

I am pasting this in from a post of mine on another thread; It seems to me, that if someone can commit such an appalling crime and the religious leader (the imam) of the community to which he belongs is ambivalent as to whether that crime is right or wrong then that is where the nub of the problem lies and is a good place to begin, and I wouldn't pussy-foot around with these jerks. It is time to take some form of positive action.

[Jackdaw33]

Having just come home from hospital after a fall at the weekend I have not seen any news since last Friday. Is there a link to the original event?

[Mamyalynne]

Sorry to hear that Jack, feel better soon.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/manchester-terror-attack-everything-know-far/

[naomi24]

He'll be a martyr to his own - to the rest of us he's the lowest of the low.

[naomi24]

Jack, I wish you well.

[jourdain2]

Hope you feel better soon Jack, nursing OH at the mo. after cancer op..

The problem seems to be that many Imams will not unilaterally condemn Islamic outrages. I suppose this is because they can be held to account because the Koran tells followers to kill infidels. Sad - and a huge problem.

[agchristie]

Khandro > I think Murray is saying, unless we begin to consider that - as unbelievable as it seems to us some people believe he is a martyr, we may not come to terms with understanding the mentality of these people and thereby addressing the enormous problem Western civilization is facing.

Just wanted to come back to this. I think your understanding is right. However,as much as I admire Murray, I'm not sure that it is even possible to understand the mentality. It's like the cup of tea with IS leaders syndrome.

I think the starting point lies elsewhere...

[tonyav]

Martyr !
No murdering scum.

[Old_Geezer]

Khandro, I think the title/tone of your opening post was an unfortunate diversion from the real issue. Debate on terrorist labels overshadowed any discussion regarding the idea of trying to tackle the issue from one of it's causes. I don't think you can swing it around on a subsequent post. That said I'd expect very few dissenting voices here to questioning mullahs/imams/ulamas asking them to clarify that the only correct interpretations are the nonviolent ones, and condemn any other interpretation/action, or to admit that is not what they teach.

[Smowball]

He is a murderer. End of.

[andy-hughes]

Religion binds people together - an important aspect of the human psyche.

Those who feel a need to 'belong' more strongly that others, bind more closely, and those that really do need a serious dose of self-belief and a feeling of belonging, turn to cults like this.

So the notion that you are dying for 'the cause' is absolute meat and drink to the deluded individuals who think this way. He will have been told endless times how his 'sacrifice' is justified - how else do you convince someone to kill themselves in this way.

So, to the people who think as he does, of course he is a martyr, but back on planet Earth, everyone else sees him as a murderer.

It's all a matter of perception.

[Khandro]

OG // I'd expect very few dissenting voices here to questioning mullahs/imams/ulamas asking them to clarify that the only correct interpretations are the nonviolent ones, and condemn any other interpretation/action, or to admit that is not what they teach.//

You're damn right there.
"ABOUT 70% of Muslim prison chaplains espouse a hardline interpretation of Islam that runs contrary to British values and human rights, an independent review has discovered.

The study by Ian Acheson, a former Home Office official, which is expected to be published next month, found about 140 of the 200 Muslim chaplains working in the country’s prisons were imams who had studied Deobandi Islam, which developed in India in the 19th century as a reaction against British colonialism, forbids music and promotes gender segregation." and a lot more!

The Times

...and what's more, we pay then handsomely for each visit. We are actually paying money to these clowns to teach hatred of us.

[vetuste_ennemi]

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/06/who-runs-our-mosques/

[vetuste_ennemi]

And who are the imams?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6280238.stm

[Khandro]

An extract from v_e's BBC reference reads;
" The survey, carried out among 300 imams by the University of Chester, painted a picture of a rapid influx of imams from India, Bangladesh, and especially Pakistan, with limited ability in English, and rudimentary professional qualifications by Western standards.

The survey found that although half of Muslims in Britain were born here, nine out of 10 of their imams came from overseas, 70% of them within the last decade.

Getting on for 90% speak a South Asian language as their mother tongue, and, perhaps more significantly, more than half of sermons are in Urdu. English comes some way behind. "

Also; Approximately 2,000 of Germany's 3,000 mosques are Turkish - of which 900 are financed by the Diyanet İşleri Türk-İslam Birliği, an arm of the Turkish government, and the remainder by other political Turkish groups and most of them do not speak German. The Germans have effectively no say in who these people are, or what they are preaching.

[vetuste_ennemi]

Small gloss on Khandro's post: the BBC article was written in 2007, so "within the last 20 years". But don't know how many new imams entered in the last ten yers.