Train penalty notice

[themalster]

Hi all,

Recently I was caught without a ticket on a train (I was in a rush and didnt have time to wait as the train was appraoching) and i was only going 3 stops. The inspector asked where i got on and where i was getting off. I explained the situation as to why i didnt have a ticket. He asked me to write down my name, address and date of birth, which i did.

He thanked me and i got off at my stop. This was 3 weeks ago. I received a penalty notice for £50 (£20 fine and £30 admin costs) which stated that the notice the inspector gave me would have told me how to appeal. The inspector gave me NO NOTICE/PAPERWORK and my friend who was with me can confirm this.

I have appealed against the £50.

Do i have a case?

Thank you in advance

[sara3]

no.

[donna1901]

not particually. companys will always protect their workers :(
I couldnt dream of getting on a train without a ticket.

[ummmm]

Did you not pay on the train?

[jackthehat]

If you walked through a station where there is a manned-office or a ticket-machine and failed to buy a ticket..............you have no legs to stand on.

This question ought to be right up Buenchico's street, for several reasons :o)

[themalster]

Ok thanks guys.

I just assumed that because he hadnt given me any paperwork (which they normally do) I would have a case.

It's a fair cop!

[NoMercy]

Yes, if he didn't follow procedures correctly and obtain a signature to prove he'd issued you with either a verbal or written warning, then how can he possibly prove he did so?

[dzug2]

You don't have a case. Just pay up.

[sara3]

so how have you managed to appeal without this paperwork?

you may win the appeal (not sure on what grounds) but I would suggest that if they threaten to take you to court.. just pay the penalty notice!

[themalster]

They have sent me a notice to say the fine is now £50 (it was £20 but because i didnt appeal within the 21 days it adds admin costs). On the notice it says if you want to appeal, to do so on their website

[NoMercy]

TheMalster... Years ago, when I had my own business, I booked a late trip to Toronto. I forgot to pay the rent on the shop before I went away, and consequently I was 6 days late with the rent when the landlord sent the bailiffs in. The Bailiff came in demanding the 4.5k rent, plus £869 in "charges". He left no paperwork and obtained no signature from me.

I contacted the Bailiffs a couple of days later to say that I had paid my rent directly to the landlord and that I would not be paying their extortionate fees. They sent a heavy in and started removing stock. I contacted the police and the police made him go away. Unfortunately, the police didn't have the power to force the chap to return the stock he'd already taken from the premises, so I contacted my solicitor. In the end, the bailiff had to bring all the stock back, and pay my solicitors fees. This was because they didn't follow procedures by handing me any paperwork in the first place or obtaining a signature from me or a person in authority. To reiterate: YES, you do have a case.

[themalster]

Thank you NoMercy. I will wait for the outcome of my appeal.

[NoMercy]

If push comes to shove, I'd pay the £20 fine, because that's a fair cop. However, I'd tell them to shove their demands for a £30 admin cost.

Still, you have everything on your side as far as I can see.

[R1Geezer]

Hard wiork now. pay the £20 not the admin charge.

Next time just refuse to give any details and pay the fare for where you are going. They'll try and slap a surcharge on but refuse to pay that. Just bluster.

This situation is common, ie you have choice try and get a ticket or catch the train, I always go for the latter and front it out. For information there is a "Permit to travel" machine at stations, if it's handy just put 5p in it and take the ticket. this indicates an intention to pay and they don't seem to mind that.

[New Judge]

Railway fare evasion is contrary to the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (yes, eighteen eighty-nine). It is punishable by way of a fine of up to £1,000 or three month’s custody, though magistrates’ sentencing guidelines suggest a fine of about a week’s net income (reduced by a third for a guilty plea) for first time offenders.

It is a “summary” offence (that is, it can only be dealt with in the magistrates’ court). If you decide not to pay all or part of the penalty the train company has levied they will no doubt launch a prosecution. If you are convicted you will have a criminal record, you will be liable to a fine as I suggested above, you will pay court costs (up to £350 if you plead not guilty) and a £15 Victim Surcharge.

The situation that No Mercy describes is completely different and is covered by civil law, so a comparison is not valid. Contrary to No Mercy’s advice about paperwork, it is not necessary to issue documents or get you to sign anything to prove that the incident occurred or that the correct procedures were followed. The ticket inspector can give oral evidence to show the court what happened. So far from having “everything on your side” I would suggest that the only possible defence you have is along the lines that you were not warned in time that a prosecution would follow. If you were not warned at the time of the incident you should have been told within two weeks. (If the warning was by post it must be posted so as to arrive within two weeks in normal circumstances).

You may, however, find this difficult and in any case it is not an absolute defence. The court will consider whether, in all the circumstances, the prosecution was properly brought.

My advice – pay up, thus avoiding a heftier fine and costs and a criminal conviction.

[themalster]

Ok, thank you New Judge. Appreciate the in depth response.

[Twenty20]

Err, just read through the replies here. Not entirely sure what not paying your rent and having the bailiffs in has to do with a penalty fare on the railways?

To the OP, why didn't you pay the fare on the train?

[cathfromsaron]

we can pay on the train in certain areas of wales but not near towns where they have manned stations. it is different everywhere. your only case is to state you tried to pay and were open about having rushed aboard. also appeals need to be handled correctly/legally and they may just give in because of the hassle or lose the paperwork! if you were not served with papers by that man on the train and they say you were THAT is your case.

but really the onus is on you to have bought the ticket if there were machines or people at the station.

cath

[smartypants10101]

But surely you would only appeal if you were in the right and they were in the wrong , im sure the train guards have heard the same excuses for having no ticket time after time, u should of said u was homeless and had no fixed abode, then they would of given u a verbal warning, as far as having a case i think the only one u might have is the one u was carrying as a passenger :)

[smartypants10101]

i dont think many of those laws apply now new judge, when they were privatised any criminal convictions would of become a civil matter, hence why the civil recovery scheme was set up .,