Motive

[chris-charn]

is there anyone out there can help me im working on a court case which is quite important,
is there anything out there that a rational , normal human being can do that is done without motive ? ie an action carried out without reason or purpose? please think it through caredully.
Thank you for your thoughts justice may prevail. youll be helping me and my little boy aged five christian thank you

[KARL]

It all depends on how you define "motive". For example, isn't "just for kicks" a statement of motive even though to (at least nearly) everyone else it does not make any sense at all ?

[Peter Pedant]

yeah
motive is virtually useless in law
I cant think of any crime where motive ( rather than intent ) counts for anything.
The motive for robbing a bank is to get rich - the intent for theft ( not really robbery but what the hell ) is intention permanently to deprive.

I was accused of harassment by a disgruntled ex-tenant ( who I later got a CCJ against for debt ) and her motive was to prevent me from serving papers ( so the case couldnt be heard - she aint got no papers geddit?).
The harassment bit ( one of a few) was purely on whether it was lawful for me to hand her court papers or post them thro the letter box and ask verbally for the payment of a debt ( It was ) . Motive completely irrelevant

I am guessing but if your point is that
the mother of little christian is alleging such and such so as to stop your access or visiting - then I am afraid this commonplace - happens every day. So common that the CAB can help ( because they see a alot ) and you dont have to say anything in public

[woofgang]

off the top of my head
actions carried out while sleepwalking
actions carried out while under the influence of drink or drugs
actions carried out by someone who has had a stroke or head injury
actions carried out by someone with a severe learning difficulty or severe autism
reactive actions in general...slapping at wasp when it stings you....maybe hitting out at someone who things its funny to creep up behind you and grab you.

I think I would divide off motive from reason.... to me at least, motive implies some kind of forethought, even if not a plan, and a perceived benefit. things like swatting the wasp or someone with brain damage having a melt down is reactive....there is a clear reason, often a cause and effect chain and the reaction may be predictable..... autistic child always fights and screams if they need their hair washed.....but I would still not say there is a motive because the child doesn't plan it. Some people who have had a stroke or a head injury may lead more or less normal lives but may lack aspects of self control. The reason for their action is the stroke or head injury, but its not a motive as such.

[Peter Pedant]

yeah but no but
we arent talking about - taking cream buns from the fridge whilst sleep walking
are we?
or are we?

motive has noting to do with automatic actions as a defence to criminal charges ( or civil)
and anyway - skeep walking and talking cream buns from the fridge still strikes me as having a motive

drunk - you are held to be liable for your actions whilst drugged or drunk

[woofgang]

yes PP its all a bit tangled....people have been known to do more than take cream buns from the fridge when sleepwalking but I take your point about motive and, by extension about the difference between reason and motive and the difference between responsibility under law and motive or reason outside of law. Again, while people are responsible for their actions when drunk or drugged, I think its questionable whether there is actual intent. Stir in the question of capacity and you have a real old mash up........still hopefully the OP will get something useful from this thread.

[woofgang]

a bit frivolous but a quote from one of my favourite books. Not sure how factually accurate it is

‘You can have no idea,’ said Peter, irrelevantly, ‘how refreshing it is to talk to somebody who has a grasp of method. The police are excellent fellows, but the only principle of detection they have really grasped is that wretched phrase, Cui bono? They will hare off after motive, which is a matter for psychologists. Juries are just the same. If they can see a motive they tend to convict, however often the judge may tell them that there’s no need to prove motive, and that motive by itself will never make a case. You’ve got to show how the thing was done, and then, if you like, bring in motive to back up your proof. If a thing could only have been done one way, and if only one person could have done it that way, then you’ve got your criminal, motive or no motive. There’s How, When, Where, Why and Who – and when you’ve got How, you’ve got Who. Thus spake Zarathustra.’

Sayers, Dorothy L.. Busman's Honeymoon: Lord Peter Wimsey Book 13 (Lord Peter Wimsey Series) (p. 232). Hodder & Stoughton. Kindle Edition.

[dannyk13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motive_(law)

[Peter Pedant]

I knew I was right
from the article

In criminal law, motive in itself is not an element of any given crime; ........ However, a motive is not required to reach a verdict.[2] Motives are also used i..... when police are initially investigating.[2]

but you may not mean motive
you may mean intent

[pixie374]

A rational human carrying out an action without intent would be down to instinct (from reflex to autopilot). It would be a subconscious decision, so covers a lot of reasons.