ChatterBank2 mins ago
Council Tax (contd)
I know that unless they've gained access once, then they can't break in, but I know bailiffs of old and I know how dogged and threatening they can be.
How much force can they use in order to gain access to the property (whether or not we're there)? What will happen if they call in the police and a locksmith (which bailiffs have threatened to do before). Is there any way we can get someone to listen to/take notice of our offers of payment? It's not that we don't want to pay - we just can't afford to pay what they're asking for. There's no point contacting the council, because they just tell me that the debt's out of their hands now and I have to take it up with the bailiffs.
How much force can they use in order to gain access to the property (whether or not we're there)? What will happen if they call in the police and a locksmith (which bailiffs have threatened to do before). Is there any way we can get someone to listen to/take notice of our offers of payment? It's not that we don't want to pay - we just can't afford to pay what they're asking for. There's no point contacting the council, because they just tell me that the debt's out of their hands now and I have to take it up with the bailiffs.
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This won't solve all your problems but, hopefully, once you've read it, you will have a clearer understanding of your situation:
http://www.insolvencyhelpline.co.uk/debt_basic s/bailiff-guide.htm
I also strongly advise that you seek the advice of your local CAB.
Good luck!
Chris
http://www.insolvencyhelpline.co.uk/debt_basic s/bailiff-guide.htm
I also strongly advise that you seek the advice of your local CAB.
Good luck!
Chris
You are right, they cannot legally gain access to the property unless they have gained access in the past.
If they fail with the van visit, the chances are they will pass the debt back to the Council because its pointless pursuing it with bailiffs.
It is at this point you could re-negotiate with the Council.
However, why didnt they offer you help at the beginning, did you meet with the council to explain your situation and come up with an arrangement.
Yes I agree that if you miss payments they can demand the full amount but most councils will be willing to re-negotiate because the chances are the people who miss payments would certainly not then have the money available to pay the full amount.
Pay something, anything to the Council. They wont refuse a payment but the longer it goes on without a payment the less likely they will be to talk to you and try and help.
If they fail with the van visit, the chances are they will pass the debt back to the Council because its pointless pursuing it with bailiffs.
It is at this point you could re-negotiate with the Council.
However, why didnt they offer you help at the beginning, did you meet with the council to explain your situation and come up with an arrangement.
Yes I agree that if you miss payments they can demand the full amount but most councils will be willing to re-negotiate because the chances are the people who miss payments would certainly not then have the money available to pay the full amount.
Pay something, anything to the Council. They wont refuse a payment but the longer it goes on without a payment the less likely they will be to talk to you and try and help.
Council Tax debt is unlike most other debts in that that the creditors have recourse to both the civil and criminal court processes.
At the current stage the council will refuse to accept any payments from you. Rather like the parking ticket process, once the debt has been passed to the bailiffs it is for them to recover the debt or report back to the council that they have been unable to do so. Bailiffs operate under the County Court procedure (which is part of the civil court) and it is with this court that your case currently rests.
The bailiffs will try to extract payment by whatever methods they choose to use under the laws and codes under which they operate. These have been outlined in the link provided by Chris. However, unlike the parking ticket process (which is no longer �criminal�) if the bailiffs are unable to clear the debt the case can be referred to the magistrates� court for �criminal� action to be taken.
If this happens, you will be asked to appear before the magistrates to explain why the debt has not been paid. They will conduct a �means enquiry� into your circumstances and decide whether you have wilfully refused to pay (i.e. had the funds but decided to spend them on something else) or whether you have simply been unable to pay.
If they decide that wilful refusal if evident they will make an order for you to pay the council in a manner according to your means. They will also set a custodial sentence (the length of which is determined by the size of the debt) which will be activated in the event of your failure to meet the payments they specify.
If they decide you simply were unable to pay they have the power to write off all or part of the debt.
Beware that this process only applies to the retrospective debts you have built up for previous years. You will still be liable to pay the current year�s tax.
At the current stage the council will refuse to accept any payments from you. Rather like the parking ticket process, once the debt has been passed to the bailiffs it is for them to recover the debt or report back to the council that they have been unable to do so. Bailiffs operate under the County Court procedure (which is part of the civil court) and it is with this court that your case currently rests.
The bailiffs will try to extract payment by whatever methods they choose to use under the laws and codes under which they operate. These have been outlined in the link provided by Chris. However, unlike the parking ticket process (which is no longer �criminal�) if the bailiffs are unable to clear the debt the case can be referred to the magistrates� court for �criminal� action to be taken.
If this happens, you will be asked to appear before the magistrates to explain why the debt has not been paid. They will conduct a �means enquiry� into your circumstances and decide whether you have wilfully refused to pay (i.e. had the funds but decided to spend them on something else) or whether you have simply been unable to pay.
If they decide that wilful refusal if evident they will make an order for you to pay the council in a manner according to your means. They will also set a custodial sentence (the length of which is determined by the size of the debt) which will be activated in the event of your failure to meet the payments they specify.
If they decide you simply were unable to pay they have the power to write off all or part of the debt.
Beware that this process only applies to the retrospective debts you have built up for previous years. You will still be liable to pay the current year�s tax.
Pretty much agree with most of the other posts, but don't get confused between county and magistrates court. The county court have to license the bailiffs but your debt and associated collection methods relate to the magistrates court.
If you don't pay what they want, and you don't let them back in or leave any doors/windows open/unlocked, then liklihood is that it will be returned 'nulla bonna' to council and their next action would be committal procedure in court. If they haven't been in before, then their next action is a lot more limited.
If you are working (the person whose name is on the account), then it may work out cheaper for you to have deductions made from your wages instead (Attachment of Earnings Order). You could suggest this to the council and they generally like doing them as the money just comes in without much effort. You can see how much the rates would be here: www.huntsdc.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/BDEDC266-1F7F-4DCB-B9AC-AFFE9F68736A/0/Attachmentofearnings.pdf
(or on another council's website, this was the first one I came across!).
Otherwise, you could try the CAB and get a budget worked out showing you can only afford �90 a month, a lot of the time that overtakes any other action or at least puts it on hold for a bit.
Whatever you do though, do not ignore it even if you don't hear anything for a little while. Check the status with the council after the time you think the bailiffs have finished with it, and they may be more inclined to accept your offer (if AEO not relevant as above).
If you don't pay what they want, and you don't let them back in or leave any doors/windows open/unlocked, then liklihood is that it will be returned 'nulla bonna' to council and their next action would be committal procedure in court. If they haven't been in before, then their next action is a lot more limited.
If you are working (the person whose name is on the account), then it may work out cheaper for you to have deductions made from your wages instead (Attachment of Earnings Order). You could suggest this to the council and they generally like doing them as the money just comes in without much effort. You can see how much the rates would be here: www.huntsdc.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/BDEDC266-1F7F-4DCB-B9AC-AFFE9F68736A/0/Attachmentofearnings.pdf
(or on another council's website, this was the first one I came across!).
Otherwise, you could try the CAB and get a budget worked out showing you can only afford �90 a month, a lot of the time that overtakes any other action or at least puts it on hold for a bit.
Whatever you do though, do not ignore it even if you don't hear anything for a little while. Check the status with the council after the time you think the bailiffs have finished with it, and they may be more inclined to accept your offer (if AEO not relevant as above).
Thanks ever so much for all your advice, folks.
The debt is for this year's account. We've had problems before and so the council didn't muck about - they just went for it. I was told that since we were admitting the debt, then we wouldn't actually have to attend at court, just fill in the means forms, which I did, and on which I did actually say that we'd be agreeable to an AEO. The council and the bailiffs have just ignored the lot.
Anyhow, we had a good think about it, and we're going to try and scrape together what they're asking. Basically I just want the little sh*ts off my back. They're going to get the money in four post-dated cheques from my mum's account, into which we'll pay the money to cover it. The cheques will be sent recorded delivery, so they can't deny receipt. Chances are their van will cross with the post early next week, but that's their problem. They're levying a �110 charge for the priviledge, but they can go whistle for that.
I think my main worry is that a bailiff who we dealt with before falsified my husband's signature on a form to say that they'd already been allowed in - on a day and time when hubby can confirm he was at work (they have CCTV). Conveniently, the man concerned had left their employ and they wouldn't follow it up - they just sent this cow round (three days after I'd had foot surgery) to threaten me with forcible entry. My neighbour eventually sent her packing, but I don't want a repeat of the situation. Bailiffs are some the most bullying thugs in society and I know they'll stop at nothing to make people pay up, despite what they say. I just don't want to fight them anymore.
The debt is for this year's account. We've had problems before and so the council didn't muck about - they just went for it. I was told that since we were admitting the debt, then we wouldn't actually have to attend at court, just fill in the means forms, which I did, and on which I did actually say that we'd be agreeable to an AEO. The council and the bailiffs have just ignored the lot.
Anyhow, we had a good think about it, and we're going to try and scrape together what they're asking. Basically I just want the little sh*ts off my back. They're going to get the money in four post-dated cheques from my mum's account, into which we'll pay the money to cover it. The cheques will be sent recorded delivery, so they can't deny receipt. Chances are their van will cross with the post early next week, but that's their problem. They're levying a �110 charge for the priviledge, but they can go whistle for that.
I think my main worry is that a bailiff who we dealt with before falsified my husband's signature on a form to say that they'd already been allowed in - on a day and time when hubby can confirm he was at work (they have CCTV). Conveniently, the man concerned had left their employ and they wouldn't follow it up - they just sent this cow round (three days after I'd had foot surgery) to threaten me with forcible entry. My neighbour eventually sent her packing, but I don't want a repeat of the situation. Bailiffs are some the most bullying thugs in society and I know they'll stop at nothing to make people pay up, despite what they say. I just don't want to fight them anymore.
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