Is This Fair

[lankeela]

"BBC Two's Mastermind presented by new host Clive Myrie is particularly interested in receiving applications from under-represented groups for the next series!"

Should they not take applications equally from everyone that applies?

[DTCwordfan]

I nominate Naomi to stand from here, her specialist subject, 'The history and politics of Answerbank'......dead cert for round 2!

[andy-hughes]

naomi - // //To an extent, Mastermind (and UC, Only Connect etc) are the wrong places to tackle the issue. //

Why? Do you think ethnic minorities are incapable of competing in those competitions?

First of all we have to decide whether or not there is an issue to tackle - and frankly, I don’t think there is. Has it occurred to anyone that perhaps many people from ethnic minorities just don’t want to enter quizzes? It seems to me that those concerned about it aren’t from ethnic minorities. I don’t hear them complaining, just as I don’t hear them complaining about calling Christmas Christmas instead of something aimed at diversity like Winterval. When it was suggested that the wide open spaces in this country were solely the domain of white people I recall reading a letter from an Indian lady who asked why on earth would anyone want to frequent those places? It’s not something they do in their own countries and it’s not something the majority of them want to do anywhere else. Why do those baying for ‘fairness’ assume that everyone wants to do as they do? They don’t - but they’re as welcome as anyone else if they so choose. No one in this country is excluded from anything that is open to everyone else. This fluffy, fussy crusade for inclusivity really is utter nonsense. //

I know you already have the BA on this thread - but were it within my power, I'd give you the BA for the above - pointing out something as obvious as it is overlooked - that some people just don't want to do something that other people seem to think they should, and that has nothing to do with the colour of their skin.

[jim360]

On an individual level, of course it's true that nobody has to like the same things. But if a pattern emerges over a whole society, that's when it's worth digging into why. The problem seems to be that you and Naomi are so focused on the first sort of reason (lack of interest perhaps because of culture and upbringing), and ignoring the existence of the second (any push factors that discourage those who would otherwise be interested. I'm only interested in, and only talking about, the second, which is a detriment to society however you look at it. If you're putting people off from pursuing something they would otherwise have had interest in, of course that damages the chances that you'll get the top talent in the end.

[naomi24]

//If you're putting people off //

But no one is doing that. Quite the opposite.

[andy-hughes]

Jim - // The problem seems to be that you and Naomi are so focused on the first sort of reason (lack of interest perhaps because of culture and upbringing), and ignoring the existence of the second (any push factors that discourage those who would otherwise be interested. //

It's not that I am not interested in the second reason, it's that I think the logic and plausibility of the first, as outlined by Naomi, are vdery difficult to gainsay.

To assume that people are in some way prevented from doing something, when the actual reality may be that they simply don't want to, is to add to the current infestation of modern society, which is looking for someone or something to blame because the world doesn't exist in the format that you believe it should.

[andy-hughes]

jim - // If you're putting people off from pursuing something they would otherwise have had interest in, of course that damages the chances that you'll get the top talent in the end. //

Yet again I must agree with naomi's position on this - given the encoragement that is clearly and obviously being offered to minorites, the lack of take-up does not indicate discrimination, it indicates indifference.

[jim360]

I'll certainly allow that people can be too eager to ignore the existence of the first reason, but it's way too convenient to equally dismiss the possibility of a second reason, or to suggest that such second reasons have already disappeared. Take, for example, this very discussion, which has seen a lot of resentment at positive discrimination. That's a real resentment that exists, whether or not positive discrimination existed or was responsible for a person getting their job, or their place on a show, etc. That's also a barrier: if the default assumption among many is that somebody was the beneficiary of positive discrimination, then they can often feel an extra pressure to prove otherwise.

I'm also surprised that anyone could think that such barriers are entirely removed by simply putting a message to that effect on the application form. Life isn't that simple.

[naomi24]

Jim, people do what they want to do - not as you want them to do. Get used to it.

[Spicerack]

This 'question' was raised just 4 years ago on AB. It was dismissed as clickbait by everyone including SP and, I think, Jim.
Does this show how easily the Overton Window can be shifted? (If you/we consider it has shifted)

[jim360]

// Jim, people do what they want to do - not as you want them to do. //

This still doesn't remotely address anything I'm saying. Any chance you could reply to what my actual points are, rather than what you merely imagine them to be?

[Peter Pedant]

// simply saying that the selection process shouldn’t involve ethnicity.// - isnt this ignoring the point as usual ?

oxbridge candidates are still overwhelmingly white and etonian and wiv moolah
and the uvva kids are discouraged from applying by being told straight they arent good enough - I suspect because the teachers cant be arrissed to teach them

(*) hey when code breaker shawn wiley finished being prof pure maff att Cambridge he went to Moojah Comp and asked if they wanted him to take the second year a level maff class. wish I'd gone to Moojah - -- hoojah!)

[Peter Pedant]

Jim - - this is AB
please use sentences of three words or less - for any chance of a reply

[Spicerack]

I've got one for you, pp, but it's only two words.

[naomi24]

Jim, I’ve told you many times I read only what you say - and that’s what I respond to. If you feel your deliberations are misunderstood I can only suggest you condense them into more palatable chunks. Other people (well, most of them) seem to convey their thoughts perfectly well without causing the reader’s eyes to glaze over.

Spicerack, if I could give you Best Answer for 11.23 I would.