ChatterBank5 mins ago
Living On Land Legally For 28 Days A Year. Dividing Into 13 Small Plots.
Hi all.
I am new to this forum and came across this by accident looking into how I can legally live on my land without any hassle from LPA. I was very interested in the article about selling off 13 small plots to family and friends and moving to another plot every 28 days.
I own 2 plots of land which we keep our horses, Llamas and sheep on. One plot is 3.25 acres and the other 1.5 acres. Its classed as green wedge land and separates 2 villages. It is also a designated flood plain, but houses opposite were also built on this same area and come under the 100 year flood.
We've been on the land for 20 years nearly and have temporary permission for stables as long as we own the land. We won this permission after a 2 year battle with the council and were featured on tv, radio and regularly in the local paper. I think they've held a grudge ever since and shortly after winning at committee meeting they slapped rates on us because we owned half a dozen horses and said we are a business, which we are not. We could have had the rates removed but were told we have more rights if listed down as a business. Don't know whether true or not.
Wave been to council this morning for a visit about applying for a house or even a mobile home and got the usual non helpful attitude. When we mentioned human rights he said to us and I have a recording of it that he's not human. Don't know what he means by that. I asked him how many days I could legally live on my land and at first he wasn't sure, then he came out with the answer of 28 days. I then put it to him that I was possibly planning on buying a touring caravan and selling off 12 plots and registering each one at land registry (to friends of course) and then renting each plot on a monthly basis. I told him that I would then move from one plot to the other every 28 days. As you can guess he wasn't too happy about that and said if we did that they wouldn't accept this and would class each plot as part of the overall field before it was sectioned off and would apply for each plot to have permitted development rights (Article 4 direction) removed (section 4) so we couldn't do this. Not sure if he were trying to frighten us off or what as we wouldn't be putting any or even applying for any buildings. Just simply living on for 28 days and then moving off. Have any of you guys had any experience with this as this seems to be the most sensible route to go down or do you think he's just trying to frighten us off?
Any help in this matter would be gratefully appreciated.
I am new to this forum and came across this by accident looking into how I can legally live on my land without any hassle from LPA. I was very interested in the article about selling off 13 small plots to family and friends and moving to another plot every 28 days.
I own 2 plots of land which we keep our horses, Llamas and sheep on. One plot is 3.25 acres and the other 1.5 acres. Its classed as green wedge land and separates 2 villages. It is also a designated flood plain, but houses opposite were also built on this same area and come under the 100 year flood.
We've been on the land for 20 years nearly and have temporary permission for stables as long as we own the land. We won this permission after a 2 year battle with the council and were featured on tv, radio and regularly in the local paper. I think they've held a grudge ever since and shortly after winning at committee meeting they slapped rates on us because we owned half a dozen horses and said we are a business, which we are not. We could have had the rates removed but were told we have more rights if listed down as a business. Don't know whether true or not.
Wave been to council this morning for a visit about applying for a house or even a mobile home and got the usual non helpful attitude. When we mentioned human rights he said to us and I have a recording of it that he's not human. Don't know what he means by that. I asked him how many days I could legally live on my land and at first he wasn't sure, then he came out with the answer of 28 days. I then put it to him that I was possibly planning on buying a touring caravan and selling off 12 plots and registering each one at land registry (to friends of course) and then renting each plot on a monthly basis. I told him that I would then move from one plot to the other every 28 days. As you can guess he wasn't too happy about that and said if we did that they wouldn't accept this and would class each plot as part of the overall field before it was sectioned off and would apply for each plot to have permitted development rights (Article 4 direction) removed (section 4) so we couldn't do this. Not sure if he were trying to frighten us off or what as we wouldn't be putting any or even applying for any buildings. Just simply living on for 28 days and then moving off. Have any of you guys had any experience with this as this seems to be the most sensible route to go down or do you think he's just trying to frighten us off?
Any help in this matter would be gratefully appreciated.
Answers
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The worst thing you tell a planner is that you are thinking of trying to get around the system. You seem rather flippant in the 'registering 12 separate plots and selling them off to family and friends. Firstly that would cost money -lots - you have to have the plots surveyed, mapped out -then sell them -money changes hands and then what happens if your 'friends' decide they quite like their peice of land and move a caravan on themselves as a holiday home? or sell it on to someone else? What will you do with your animals? The plots will all have to be fenced around. If you keep 6 horses sheep and llamas on 4.25 acre you are drastically over crowded already and maybe neighbours are an issue in the planning process? have there been complaints?.
Planning permission is required for a 'change of use'. As you've stated, no planning permission is required for a temporary change of use (not exceeding 28 days) but the actual movement of a caravan is irrelevant. You're still planning to change the use of the composite area to a 13-pitch caravan site, which it will still be even if only one of the pitches is occupied at any particular time. So planning permission is most definitely required (and will most definitely be refused).
Hi Retrochic, no complaints from neighbours. The fields already have temporary planning permission whilst we own it for stables etc. The field is already divided into 3 sections and we also have another 1.5 acre field we own. Some good points raised, but we would only sell off plots to family if we went this route. The animals would always be in one of the other fields if we did go this route soi no problems there. Not sure of what it would cost to register 12 plots but would no doubt get a better rate if all 12 done at same time.
greeneha Something just does not ring true here: You say you pay rates, therefore your land and buildings must be classed as Recreational as Ag land and buildings does not attract rates. The council cannot 'make' you say you are a business -they have to prove you make most of your income from the business -this works against some people who declare they are running a business from a field to try and get planning for a house , but they have to prove most of their income come from this business. So, if the council have 'made ' you declare yourself as a business then you have a good case for saying you need to live at your business and apply for a mobile home.
Retrochic - I can confirm this rating for business rates is correct. Agricultural use and agricultural buildings are non-rated but the OP has confirmed he has a change of use for stables. This makes the land liable for rating, even if it is not a commercial venture.
The same is true of a domestic dwelling with stables - if the land used for the equestrian element is within the curtilage of the overall dwelling, then no business rating applies (though it might uplift the council tax band), if the equestrian land is outside the curtilage, business rates are levied. This is why the OP is being levied business rates - it does not have to be a 'business'.
Others have answered the main question with similar points to those I would make - this is a non-starter.
The same is true of a domestic dwelling with stables - if the land used for the equestrian element is within the curtilage of the overall dwelling, then no business rating applies (though it might uplift the council tax band), if the equestrian land is outside the curtilage, business rates are levied. This is why the OP is being levied business rates - it does not have to be a 'business'.
Others have answered the main question with similar points to those I would make - this is a non-starter.
Hi first rule of planning is NEVER to show them all your cards! You must learn to listen to what they are complaining about and use their complaints to bolster your arguments.
When planners start waving around 'flood risk' as a way to deter you from gaining permissions you should have a good local architect to solve these issues for them, unfortunately planners dont like to give permission in fact its their job to stop developing on land, no matter how much you know they are talking crap, you can actually use everything they say against them, but the employement of an architect who is local enough to know them and ways round issues is absolutely vital when going for residential dwelling of any sort .
I dont know if your aware of this but you must use the 'health and safety' card, as a means to get them to allow you to place any building /caravan which has kitchens and bathrooms, because even if you didn't have horses and were just growing plants or mowing hay, you must be able to rest, wash, relive yourself and eat in a sanitary comfortable environment, and that also includes somewhere to sleep which all comes under health and safety .
Also permitted development rights include the siting of any towable caravan that is in good road legal order, but you dont need to actually have a caravan (these tend to *** everyone off) you can legally put up a shed and kit it out with a kitchen, bathroom and seating area,your job isn't to prove you are not living there, its their job to prove you are and that can't possibly be done unless you are under surveillance 24/7! And in which case you can file a complaint that they are ruining your natural enjoyment of your property and believe me or not it is taken seriously.
One way round all this is to have an address where they can send you letters even if its just a freinds house and you are telling them that you are commuting daily to tend to the horses and that in fact aids the means tested question they'll throw your way, because the situation means that you are tired and fatigued from travelling and because you are getting there early in the morning and leaving very late at night it has become problematic for you, (which again also helps them not to be able to prove you are living there because they physically cannot police that type of activity) ,you must use as many examples of why you need to be there for your animals safety and well-being, ill strongly advise reporting every single tiny incident to 101 and keeping a record of the reference to include in any planning application to support your means tested statements, because it will show how vulnerable animals are without supervision, include every single vet call out aswell. (all of which can be done without planning if you dont mind playing cat n mouse for a few years)
Back to the planning process if doing it by the book. Firstly you must apply for a temporary licence for a static caravan or similar, this will be granted if you meet the means tested criterias (which includes if you have earnt a min of 1 agricultural wage over the course of 1 year but you have up to 5 years to get to that point and its very low i think around 12k, it can be all of your family contributing to that but it must be earnt from the land and your operations from that land, ie making and selling hay, composting, raising chickens, wool from alpacas, breeding horses)
The council are lieing to you about your temporary stables, because all animals are required by law to have adequate shelter and that includes putting up shelters without the need for permission that is a fact btw.
The issues arise when buildings are over a certain permitted height, if they have concreted yards, if they have stable doors rather than gates or slip rails (one way round that is to tell them some are breeding stallions, and you need an exercise area for laminitic animals etc etc)
You can also extend every building every year within reason, after 5 years you are free from planning
When planners start waving around 'flood risk' as a way to deter you from gaining permissions you should have a good local architect to solve these issues for them, unfortunately planners dont like to give permission in fact its their job to stop developing on land, no matter how much you know they are talking crap, you can actually use everything they say against them, but the employement of an architect who is local enough to know them and ways round issues is absolutely vital when going for residential dwelling of any sort .
I dont know if your aware of this but you must use the 'health and safety' card, as a means to get them to allow you to place any building /caravan which has kitchens and bathrooms, because even if you didn't have horses and were just growing plants or mowing hay, you must be able to rest, wash, relive yourself and eat in a sanitary comfortable environment, and that also includes somewhere to sleep which all comes under health and safety .
Also permitted development rights include the siting of any towable caravan that is in good road legal order, but you dont need to actually have a caravan (these tend to *** everyone off) you can legally put up a shed and kit it out with a kitchen, bathroom and seating area,your job isn't to prove you are not living there, its their job to prove you are and that can't possibly be done unless you are under surveillance 24/7! And in which case you can file a complaint that they are ruining your natural enjoyment of your property and believe me or not it is taken seriously.
One way round all this is to have an address where they can send you letters even if its just a freinds house and you are telling them that you are commuting daily to tend to the horses and that in fact aids the means tested question they'll throw your way, because the situation means that you are tired and fatigued from travelling and because you are getting there early in the morning and leaving very late at night it has become problematic for you, (which again also helps them not to be able to prove you are living there because they physically cannot police that type of activity) ,you must use as many examples of why you need to be there for your animals safety and well-being, ill strongly advise reporting every single tiny incident to 101 and keeping a record of the reference to include in any planning application to support your means tested statements, because it will show how vulnerable animals are without supervision, include every single vet call out aswell. (all of which can be done without planning if you dont mind playing cat n mouse for a few years)
Back to the planning process if doing it by the book. Firstly you must apply for a temporary licence for a static caravan or similar, this will be granted if you meet the means tested criterias (which includes if you have earnt a min of 1 agricultural wage over the course of 1 year but you have up to 5 years to get to that point and its very low i think around 12k, it can be all of your family contributing to that but it must be earnt from the land and your operations from that land, ie making and selling hay, composting, raising chickens, wool from alpacas, breeding horses)
The council are lieing to you about your temporary stables, because all animals are required by law to have adequate shelter and that includes putting up shelters without the need for permission that is a fact btw.
The issues arise when buildings are over a certain permitted height, if they have concreted yards, if they have stable doors rather than gates or slip rails (one way round that is to tell them some are breeding stallions, and you need an exercise area for laminitic animals etc etc)
You can also extend every building every year within reason, after 5 years you are free from planning
Further more in regards to the commercial bill, yes it is true this will help you in long run, because in order to gain planning permission to reside on land you must 1st prove that the land itself is providing at least one agricultural wage.
Even if you have only ever kept horses on land it doesn't mean that the land is automatically reclassified as *equine ' so fact they have now acknowledged your presence with a bill is useful to you, what you can do to make it affordable is to contest that only a few animals are commercial, and the rest are private owned and now retired.
You cannot win the planning circus without making money from the land, and you must have proof that you are indeed paying rates, its advised to get connected to mains electricity and water obviously because theyll also use lack of services against you, of course nowadays you can use the offgrid approach but its still alot more likely to happen if mains are already in place.
Now you have been billed for business rates the Post box is essential (in fact this is the 1st port of call before anything else) if you have done so already get a postbox on your gate, go to the post office and take your business rate letter with your property's location and address.
Also pin point and name it on google maps! I dont know if your aware but one of the many things planners throw is fact emergency services dont know where you are, they will also use this with your flood risk assessment, as a way to argue you cant be means tested.
Every angle needs a back up. For instance if they come back to you and say you cannot get a temporary residence licence (which is a 5 year plan BEFORE you achieve full planning on grazing land ) because of high risk of floods, slap them straight back with a report from your architect on design and other properties distance from you and have a written statement ready from the actual flood risk assesors (because i know for a fact this not only changes frequently it often is alot less dramatic than planners make out) you must in all flood zones also have a well written out evacuation plan, if they say that highways and byways wont favour commercial aspects you propose offer a soloution, like a vehicle pull in area and widened entrance.. Tje fact they are now willing to admit you are keeping horses and livestock and giving you business rates is a massive step, it took me 5 years to get to that point and although i wasnt running a business i did have Stallions and mares, i also knew my property would be alot more valuable as livery which you can of course go down that route soon as business rates are involved with stabling and breeding enterprises.
Just don't over do it with statements that make you sound like theyll be extra vehicles up n down your road, i think you get the idea now!
Even if you have only ever kept horses on land it doesn't mean that the land is automatically reclassified as *equine ' so fact they have now acknowledged your presence with a bill is useful to you, what you can do to make it affordable is to contest that only a few animals are commercial, and the rest are private owned and now retired.
You cannot win the planning circus without making money from the land, and you must have proof that you are indeed paying rates, its advised to get connected to mains electricity and water obviously because theyll also use lack of services against you, of course nowadays you can use the offgrid approach but its still alot more likely to happen if mains are already in place.
Now you have been billed for business rates the Post box is essential (in fact this is the 1st port of call before anything else) if you have done so already get a postbox on your gate, go to the post office and take your business rate letter with your property's location and address.
Also pin point and name it on google maps! I dont know if your aware but one of the many things planners throw is fact emergency services dont know where you are, they will also use this with your flood risk assessment, as a way to argue you cant be means tested.
Every angle needs a back up. For instance if they come back to you and say you cannot get a temporary residence licence (which is a 5 year plan BEFORE you achieve full planning on grazing land ) because of high risk of floods, slap them straight back with a report from your architect on design and other properties distance from you and have a written statement ready from the actual flood risk assesors (because i know for a fact this not only changes frequently it often is alot less dramatic than planners make out) you must in all flood zones also have a well written out evacuation plan, if they say that highways and byways wont favour commercial aspects you propose offer a soloution, like a vehicle pull in area and widened entrance.. Tje fact they are now willing to admit you are keeping horses and livestock and giving you business rates is a massive step, it took me 5 years to get to that point and although i wasnt running a business i did have Stallions and mares, i also knew my property would be alot more valuable as livery which you can of course go down that route soon as business rates are involved with stabling and breeding enterprises.
Just don't over do it with statements that make you sound like theyll be extra vehicles up n down your road, i think you get the idea now!
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