Jesus - Lucifer theory

[JustSia]

Has anyone ever heard anything about Jesus and Lucifer being the same? I can't seem to remember any details of this theory apart from 2 of them being referred to as the morning star in the Bible.

Just curious.

Clanad can you help?

S

[Lonnie]

Your right that Clanad is the best person to answer, among other thing, Theology questions, but I seem to recall the Temptations of Jesus. I believe there were three, I don't recall all of them but one was where the Devil, Lucifer, took Jesus to onto a mountain. and told him that if he bowed down to him, he would give Jesus everything he could see.

That may not be exactly accurate, but according to the New Testament it did happen, so there's no chance they were the same being.

[noxlumos]

Unless he was metaphorically arguing with his negative side.....lol

[Clanad]

Firstly, thank you for the compliment, Lonnie... however I find myself in the same hangar analogy as Quizmonster (respectfully known as Q)and easily state that the there's acres of things I don't know (Why are there so many single shoestrings of different sizes and colors in my junk drawer?)... however somethings are crystal clear once the decision is made to apply the same reasoning to things such as this as one does in every day life...
I do know that the teachings of the LDS Church (Mormons) equate Jesus as the literal, physical brother of Lucifer, but that's another discussion.
Other than that, Scripture is filled with examples of Ha Massiach being God and Lucifer being a created angel... An example is Ezek 28:12-17 �You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz and emerald, chrysolite, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and beryl. Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. 14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. 15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. 16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. 17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.� (NIV).
Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.

The problem comes when Isaiah 14:12-14 is quoted...�How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." (NIV) The problem is the words translated from the Hebrew to give us Morning Star are not found in the Hebrew of this Scripture! The word Morning is boker and star is kokwab. The only place these two terms are used together is in the Book of Job 38:7 and translate to... "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" which is a reference to the angles who rejoiced at God's creation. The Hebrew word which does appear in Isaiah 14 is heilel; a verb which is used many times and has many very different meanings including: "to shine, to be foolish, to boast, to glory, to praise, and to be mad (insane or crazy).
Interestingly, the name "Lucifer" does not appear in most modern translations of the Christian Bible. "Lucifer" is Jerome's direct translation in his Vulgate (4th century) of the Septuagint's Greek translation, as heosphoros, "morning star" or "Day Star," literally "bringer of the Dawn", of a phrase in Isaiah 14:12 (already discussed) (Source: Scripture Studies).
Yeshua, however, is called the morning star in Rev. 22:16 where he says: "I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

Contd.

[Clanad]

Contd.

Further to bolster the difference is found in Luke 10:17-20 '...The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

As Lonnie alludes Yeshua, immediately after his baptism by John the Baptist was tempted by Satan. In each case Yeshua responded not with an argument, but quotes from Scripture(s) (Old Covenant).
It must be the approaching Easter season, but suddenly there's a great interest in this subject on this site Firstly, thanks for that interest, but secondly, many people have no or very little idea of what Scripture(s) actually say and this leads to the acceptance of heresies... especially those that attack the Divinity and simple exposition of Who Yeshua was and the unexplainable love of why He was here... in my opinion...

Shalom! l'shanah haba'ah Yirushalayim

[JustSia]

Thank you Lonnie and Clanad (I knew you'd come to the resque).

The reason I asked was because a friend of mine and I always argue about religion and he is really big on pointing out all the inconsistencies in the Bible. The above was one of his come backs so I was curious if there was anything behind it. Thank you for explaining it to me Clanad.

S.

[gammaray]

I bet you wish you hadn't asked now .

[Tillyella]

Just felt that I'd like to add some information which would add weight to the fact that Jesus and Satan are certainly not the same person. Certainly they were both angels but the scripture in Colossians 1:15 describe Jesus as being the firstborn of creation so Jesus was the first thing that God created. Lonnie was right when he said that the Devil offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if he would would bow down to him showing that these kingdowms were under the control of the Devil. Later Jesus himself confirmed this when he said in John 14:30 that the ruler of the world (Satan) had no hold on him. In Jude 9 it speaks there of a dispute between Michael (widely thought to be Jesus' heavenly name) and the Devil over the body of Moses and later in Revelation 12:7-12 it talks about a battle in heaven again between Michael and the Devil. These scriptures clearly show that Jesus and the Devil are not one and the same. The scripture in Revelation 12:12 also makes it clear why the earth is in such a mess.

[oldproji]

I will put my own belief as simply as I can without getting into the deep theology of it. The New Testament begins with the premise that Jesus is God incarnate (John 1:1) and all scripture points to this fact quite fully. Jesus was born of woman (Mary) and came into this world of human descent, with God's own spirit within him. Lucifer was of a different species entirely - an Angel of light (fallen from grace) as his name infers. Lucifer (Satan) has never had human status and became an enemy of God, and thus an enemy of Jesus! So, even if we see the term 'brother' as meaning one who is joined together in common agreement, but not necessarily of the same blood, it would be impossible to connect the two under those terms also, because they are both diametrically opposed to each other in every way shape and form. As God is spirit (Holy Spirit) and not of flesh and blood, Jesus and Satan cannot possibly be linked together by blood, unless of course, Mary also gave birth to Satan. That is not only unlikely, it did not happen.

Did Jesus and Satan know each other in heaven? Yes! But because in heaven Jesus was in the spirit form of God; and God created the host of Angels including the fallen Lucifer. That's why Jesus remarks in Luke 10:17-20 that he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. He was there at the time (Perhaps testimony of Jesus’ divinity). It was God/Jesus who threw him out of heaven in the first place.

If Satan is the enemy of God, he is also the enemy of Jesus, who is God incarnate. On that basis alone it is impossible for them to be one and the same or even brothers for that matter.

[CyA2022]

Yes, are the same. In Italia when they make their service in Latin, they name Lucifer as Jesus. Lucifer in fact mean "the star of the morning". Nothing to do with evil. In the Bible, book apocalypse Jesus call himself Lucifer "I'm the star of the morning".