Listener 4734 - Definition By Gnomish

[upsetter]

We filled the grid eventually but decided that the alphabetical caper wasn't for us.
We took a huge leap in the dark and guessed what should be submitted.
Will our hubris be rewarded?

Thanks, Gnomish

[emcee]

Well, I've had a completed grid since early this morning. I have a final grid which seems to fit the bill which I will submit; however, how the sequence is used is beyond me, despite the unhelpful message formed from the extraneous consecutive pairs of letters . Certain sections of the preamble are unintelligible; for example: although I have the theme word and the full definition, how abcde (in that order) produces the theme word is beyond me. In a different order we can get the theme word but then the cyclic order is lost.

A puzzle with good tough clues subsequently ruined by the poor preamble for the endgame.

I hope the other site that gives everything away, DOESN'T. Or, if it does, I hope the people who regularly rely on that site to complete The Listener have the decency not to submit.

[upsetter]

@emcee - once you have the keyword you will see the connection between the title and the peripheral message and then, if our assumption is correct, the treatment of the other entries becomes apparent.

[Keepatit]

Emcee, I used to be annoyed about help being given, but I've made peace with it. There's one site where hints are given, and I'm sure they go further than you'd like, but it is self-policed, and themes and answers are not explicitly given away. I think that's a responsible approach.

There's another Facebook group run by someone previously banned from here, where anything goes. He also posts his solutions on his Facebook page, with a few mistakes. Which is it you object to? If it's the latter, I would ignore it. He's a second-rate solver. If it's the former, surely that's a matter for those individuals and their conscience. If they want to waste a stamp and cheat, they are only fooling themselves when it comes to Listener statistics. I know some of those invited to all-correct dinners discuss puzzles privately before submitting.

You probably wish that answers and themes to puzzles were never discussed at all, but it ain't gonna happen. I'm afraid people will not now wait three weeks for a solution. These Listener threads on AB used to receive over 100 responses in interesting weeks. Now they are lucky to reach 10. Why do you think that is? The world has moved on, and that genie will not go back in the bottle.

[emcee]

Firstly, I must sincerely apologise to the setter for my rather petulant comments about the preamble. All solvers should totally ignore these comments that I have made; the preamble is absolutely correct once the penny drops and it is fairly explained. Sorry, Gnomish.

The key, as I realised soon after posting my comments, is in the complete understanding of one particular word. This may be what you're referring to, upsetter? Everything is done to my satisfaction now. Gnomish has set a tough, fiendish puzzle for which I give thanks. I only hope the game isn't given away elsewhere.

A very interesting post, Keepatit, which highlights further unfairness I was previously unaware of. My main gripe was with the other site where there are a large number of posters who are asking about how some clues are solved. I can live with that -- it is when the theme is being discussed and some of the PDMs are given away that I feel it has gone beyond the pale.

I'm afraid, as Keepatit quite correctly says, we cannot go back to the past and just have to live with it. Rather apposite to the way the country has gone too, I feel!

[Keepatit]

Emcee, my post was written late, and more strident than I intended, so many thanks for taking it in such good part. My view is not at all dissimilar from yours. I don't like to see themes and endgames given away. But I took the view it was better to be in the tent looking out, and thereby be in a position to mitigate the damage, than outside looking in with helpless frustration. So I do sometimes post there. That's a personal judgement, of course.

As far as this thread is concerned, Dim16 seems to have been the only new contributor in the last few years. So newer solvers must be gravitating, understandably enough, to sites where they can obtain help. Which leads to my final point, as I've gone on long enough. The average age of a Listener solver must be over 50, probably over 60. For such niche puzzles to survive with such pressure on space in newspapers (and Enigmatic Variations has recently been under severe threat), they need to attract new solvers, or they will wither away. And I think those solvers will be unlikely to go through the learning curve that you and I did too many years ago, and accept that no help at all can be given until the solution is published

[emcee]

Again, some interesting points Keepatit.

In days of yore, I 'cut my teeth' on the Indy Mag puzzle and Azed's specials before I had sufficient confidence to tackle The Listener puzzle. I feel that some seeking help these days are trying to run before they can walk. It would be more beneficial (and satisfying) for them if they tackled some easier puzzles first e.g. The Inquisitor, Azed and Mephisto and built up to the tougher Listener puzzles.

[Keepatit]

I fully agree with that, Emcee. That, too, is symptomatic of the world we live in. Everyone wins a prize at sports day, everyone can go to university, a third of them gain a first, so the human race must be getting cleverer by the year (even though they can’t spell or punctuate), everyone can have everything now without saving up for it, everyone is entitled to solve the toughest thematic crossword without paying their dues. Ho hum

[Dim16]

Although I am a relative newcomer to the Listener (before 2020 I only did the Numericals) I am in my '60s so maybe younger solvers do need to be attracted!

My success rate has shot up since those early days but has now plateaued at about 70%. My policy of not seeking others' help means I am more satisfied when I do manage to finish but VERY frustrated the other 30% of the time, as is the case with this puzzle where I have completed the grid, but am not even attempting the endgame. I thought a couple of the consecutive letters were cleverly concealed.

I started the Inquisitor this year and so far am finding it at least as difficult as the Listener. The main difference I have found is that the grid may be a bit easier to complete in the former case but given that I am fairly useless at endgames that doesn't help me much.

[HawkCrossword]

I always hope for an easier one when I return after a weekend away, not least because the posties are regularly on strike and I'm worried about getting the entry in on time. This was quite difficult, but a very absorbing challenge, which I thoroughly enjoyed - thanks Gnomish!

[HawkCrossword]

Interesting debate about the ageing readership for this puzzle series. There's a very active group of younger setters of Guardian, Independent and NYT puzzles on Twitter, who I engage with from time to time. They seem like folks who may well look to move on to the greater challenges of the themed puzzles at some point. There are also very active communities out there for GK quizzes, Only-Connect-style brainteasers, Variant Sudokus, etc, all of which may come to dip their toe into the Listener one day. I'm also thinking about some new puzzle formats which might bridge the gap. I think the potential audience is out there, and the Listener just needs to reel them in.

[danielmason1938]

I am an occasional reader of this thread but never look at the other one! It is strange how, though you never give anything away, reading it when I am stuck encourages me to go back and persevere. I thought the final step in this one was really tricky but think I have sussed it! You are talking about age; my name rather gives away the fact that I am not a new younger solver.

[Philoctetes]

I don't feel this one is getting the praise it deserves. Good mixture of clues; grid build that was challenging; end game that only really became clear as it went along; witty interpretation. A strong contender. For me there are two types of perfect rubric: Those, like this, that seem impossible but explain themselves - accurately - as you progress; or those that say "Just do it" but hide subleties that emerge as you do. The "one letter from each clue spells an instruction" get a tad hackneyed. Sadly, I am in the aging group, as I first solved a Listener clue when it actually was The Listener

[NickorWan]

In that case, I will add my praise, Philoctetes. I thought it was one of the best this year.

I have to admit that the end flummoxed me for far longer than it should have done, but I accept that was down to me. Really nicely engineered puzzle with every bit of the theme adding a challenging layer for the solver.

Excellent, thanks Gnomish.

[Cruncher]

I relished the challenges of this one. Some tough clueing and I was very slow to tumble to the endgame. Always impressed by setters who manage to include a little teasing misdirection - bit like those Renaissance painters who put the odd fly on their canvasses.