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Belief Beyond God
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Is it possible for someone to be born again without the belief in a god, Jesus, scripture or religion?
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Naomi24 - Who do you think allows people into Heaven but God. If a person disobeys God's prescribed way to Heaven why would He let them in?
God through His great love sent His Son the Lord Jesus Christ to bear our sins and die upon the cross. Do you think He will say 'come on in' to those who have rejected and despised His love?
No one can work their way into Heaven
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" Titus 3:5
You say the word 'sin' bothers you. Why should it? If you don't believe that you are answerable to God, if you don't believe that one day you will have to stand before your Creator and give account then why should you be worried.
Or is it that deep down you know you are a sinner?
Oh and Naomi, you suggested that Christians live in fear of what's written in the Bible. Look at the two verses I quoted and the words 'gift' and 'mercy'. Christians don't live terrified, they live joyfully, daily in wonder at the love God has shown them.
God through His great love sent His Son the Lord Jesus Christ to bear our sins and die upon the cross. Do you think He will say 'come on in' to those who have rejected and despised His love?
No one can work their way into Heaven
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" Titus 3:5
You say the word 'sin' bothers you. Why should it? If you don't believe that you are answerable to God, if you don't believe that one day you will have to stand before your Creator and give account then why should you be worried.
Or is it that deep down you know you are a sinner?
Oh and Naomi, you suggested that Christians live in fear of what's written in the Bible. Look at the two verses I quoted and the words 'gift' and 'mercy'. Christians don't live terrified, they live joyfully, daily in wonder at the love God has shown them.
Lighter, are you honestly telling us that you know the criteria upon which god bases his law? If you really do have such inside information, and it's not just something told to you by another person or something you've read in a book, then you are indeed the most blessed of men!
Can I just ask a simple question? You say that the penalty for breaking god's law is hell, and if we don't ask forgiveness through Jesus Christ, then god will deal with the various degrees of law-breaking. If that's the case, can you tell me what happens to people who, for example, live in the jungle, and have never heard of your god or of Jesus Christ? Hardly seems fair that they'll be doomed to hell or punished when they weren't aware of the rules.
Can I just ask a simple question? You say that the penalty for breaking god's law is hell, and if we don't ask forgiveness through Jesus Christ, then god will deal with the various degrees of law-breaking. If that's the case, can you tell me what happens to people who, for example, live in the jungle, and have never heard of your god or of Jesus Christ? Hardly seems fair that they'll be doomed to hell or punished when they weren't aware of the rules.
Lighter, the doctrine of the Christian church is man made and I don't believe I am answerable to the god you worship. I have no fear of my god because he is a god of love - not of retribution and jealousy as yours is. Your god only loves you and will only accept you into heaven if you worship him - he doesn't love you unconditionally, does he. He scares the hell out of you with threats of eternal damnation if you break his rules, so he doesn't care enough about you to understand that you're only human and as such, fallible.
And yes, the word 'sin' does bother me because I think the concept of sin and the threat of god's wrath screws people up. How can anyone possibly believe that a new born baby is a sinner? What's it done? What an evil concept 'sin' is.
Men decided upon the rules and the doctrine of the church - look into it's history - look into the origins of the bible and find out how many changes men have made to it over the years. You can quote all the verses you like, but you're believing superstitious nonsense created by men and taught to you by men.
And yes, the word 'sin' does bother me because I think the concept of sin and the threat of god's wrath screws people up. How can anyone possibly believe that a new born baby is a sinner? What's it done? What an evil concept 'sin' is.
Men decided upon the rules and the doctrine of the church - look into it's history - look into the origins of the bible and find out how many changes men have made to it over the years. You can quote all the verses you like, but you're believing superstitious nonsense created by men and taught to you by men.
I'm sorry "naomi24" for using the word "sin" but I had already written the word "bad" quite a few times before so did not want to seem like I was repeating myself.
Yes you are right,the word sin(oops! said it again) may have religious overtones it also means,the implication or action of a serious or not so serious offence.
Yes you are right,the word sin(oops! said it again) may have religious overtones it also means,the implication or action of a serious or not so serious offence.
It seems my question has raised many issues and that the religious and non-religious sector will always be one of contention.I think that most of our beliefs are pretty well cemented into the fabric of our being and whatever question may spark a whole bevy of answers, we are not going to sway that much from our deep-rooted thoughts and feelings.
To answer the initial question and reiterate one of my earlier posts.
Anyone can change if they really want to but ultimately the belief in the self is the deciding factor.
To answer the initial question and reiterate one of my earlier posts.
Anyone can change if they really want to but ultimately the belief in the self is the deciding factor.
<<I have no fear of my god because he is a god of love - not of retribution and jealousy as yours is.>>
Now Naomi, you rather sarcastically said that I was blessed with inside knowledge of God, (from my point of view of course the Bible tells me about God, it is God's revelation to men).
Now then, if you do not believe the Bible then where do you get YOUR inside knowlegde about your god?
(And if it's something you've came up with yourself, why is it more valid than mine?)
Anyway, you are not quite grasping what biblical Christianity is about.
I'm not scared of God, not in the way you suggest anyway. I do fear Him, in the proper reverential/paternal way.
But I'm not afraid of Hell or eternal damnation. Why not? Because I've accepted His loving gift of Christ as my Saviour.
Many years ago, through the Bible, I realised I was a sinner and could do nothing to atone for my sins or offer God. But God's Word says He is just and able to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all iniquity.
I trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour, believing and resting on what He done on the cross, shedding His Blood for my sins.
I am truly amazed and so blessed to have fellowship with God. He is my father and I am His child, and have no dread of Him, just love.
I fail Him all the time though, and though I try not to I still fall into sin. But Christ has taken the punishment for these sins on Calvary.
God knows we are weak and feeble men and women. That's exactly why, out of His tremendous love, He sent His Son to die in our place. So Christ could fulfil the law that we couldn't keep.
Naomi, I don't know if know any Bible believing Christians, but all the ones I know aren't walking about in fear and dread but in love and joy, knowing the 'peace of God that passeth all understanding'
Now Naomi, you rather sarcastically said that I was blessed with inside knowledge of God, (from my point of view of course the Bible tells me about God, it is God's revelation to men).
Now then, if you do not believe the Bible then where do you get YOUR inside knowlegde about your god?
(And if it's something you've came up with yourself, why is it more valid than mine?)
Anyway, you are not quite grasping what biblical Christianity is about.
I'm not scared of God, not in the way you suggest anyway. I do fear Him, in the proper reverential/paternal way.
But I'm not afraid of Hell or eternal damnation. Why not? Because I've accepted His loving gift of Christ as my Saviour.
Many years ago, through the Bible, I realised I was a sinner and could do nothing to atone for my sins or offer God. But God's Word says He is just and able to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all iniquity.
I trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour, believing and resting on what He done on the cross, shedding His Blood for my sins.
I am truly amazed and so blessed to have fellowship with God. He is my father and I am His child, and have no dread of Him, just love.
I fail Him all the time though, and though I try not to I still fall into sin. But Christ has taken the punishment for these sins on Calvary.
God knows we are weak and feeble men and women. That's exactly why, out of His tremendous love, He sent His Son to die in our place. So Christ could fulfil the law that we couldn't keep.
Naomi, I don't know if know any Bible believing Christians, but all the ones I know aren't walking about in fear and dread but in love and joy, knowing the 'peace of God that passeth all understanding'
Lighter, you don't appear to have understood a word I've written. You seem to be so obsessed with saving your own soul that you're unable to conduct a rational discussion on anything that contradicts your belief.
Men wrote the bible, not god, and I repeat, many changes have been made to it - by men - over the years - and, whether you like it or not, that really is a fact. Additionally, the doctrine of the church was established by men who sat in discussion and decided what the rules should be - and in my humble opinion, in that process, they did a great disservice to the teachings of Jesus. Look at the history.
And by the way, you still haven't told me what happens to people who have never heard of your religion - or why a new born baby is deemed by the church to be a sinner. I know that according to the church we are all born in sin, but to condone the belief that an innocent baby is a sinner - and to raise that baby in that belief is nothing short of evil.
Men wrote the bible, not god, and I repeat, many changes have been made to it - by men - over the years - and, whether you like it or not, that really is a fact. Additionally, the doctrine of the church was established by men who sat in discussion and decided what the rules should be - and in my humble opinion, in that process, they did a great disservice to the teachings of Jesus. Look at the history.
And by the way, you still haven't told me what happens to people who have never heard of your religion - or why a new born baby is deemed by the church to be a sinner. I know that according to the church we are all born in sin, but to condone the belief that an innocent baby is a sinner - and to raise that baby in that belief is nothing short of evil.
Naomi - <<what happens to people who have never heard of your religion - or why a new born baby is deemed by the church to be a sinner. >>
Firstly, it's not 'my' religion. It's God's Word, His way of salvation, not something I've come up with.
People who have never heard of Christ are still sinners, they still have their God given conscience to know between right and wrong.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" I Tim 2:5
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12
I believe Jesus is the only way to God.
As for babies, yes we are all born into sin but I believe God saves those who die before they know right from wrong, (ie babies and the mentally handicapped).
Now Naomi, knowing that Jesus is the only way, regardless if we live in western society or the jungle, how much more worse will it be in the day of judgment for those who DID hear about Christ and the need of salvation yet rejected Him?
Firstly, it's not 'my' religion. It's God's Word, His way of salvation, not something I've come up with.
People who have never heard of Christ are still sinners, they still have their God given conscience to know between right and wrong.
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" I Tim 2:5
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12
I believe Jesus is the only way to God.
As for babies, yes we are all born into sin but I believe God saves those who die before they know right from wrong, (ie babies and the mentally handicapped).
Now Naomi, knowing that Jesus is the only way, regardless if we live in western society or the jungle, how much more worse will it be in the day of judgment for those who DID hear about Christ and the need of salvation yet rejected Him?
When I was a child and attended school, we used to go to assembly in the little hall and we were asked to sit on the floor and sing songs from a big sheet hanging on the wall.
Our family were not religious or follow any scripture of any kind so while singing these songs I hadn't a clue what it was all about apart from they kept on saying Jesus every so often and god.
It wasn't a religious based school so after the assembly we just did our work.
I'd never heard of Jesus so how that made me a sinner at five years old, I'm not sure. I am now forty-odd years of age and it still doesn't make any sense.
Our family were not religious or follow any scripture of any kind so while singing these songs I hadn't a clue what it was all about apart from they kept on saying Jesus every so often and god.
It wasn't a religious based school so after the assembly we just did our work.
I'd never heard of Jesus so how that made me a sinner at five years old, I'm not sure. I am now forty-odd years of age and it still doesn't make any sense.
Lighter. "Knowing Jesus is the way"? You may believe that, but that doesn't make it a proven fact. It is simply a matter of your personal faith. Many people have found their god and their peace another way, and surely you must respect their opinions even if you disagree with them. And constantly quoting texts from the bible proves absolutely nothing to those, like me, who believe that the bible is the work of man - not of god - so if we are to discuss this in a civilised manner, could we please cut the sermons?
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