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Doorman assault
My brother tried to stop a fight in a club and was put in a choke hold and thrown to the floor outside the club where he 'bounced' on the pavement then cracked his head on it.
I understand (and so does he) that maybe the doormen thought he was involved and just wanted to resolve the situation - but was this force neccessary? Also with him being totally innocent (and them not chucking the actual offenders out) is there anything we can do other than complain to the club?
Surely there must be some legality as to how much force you use - a choke hold and dragging backwards before being thrown backwards onto a pavement can not be legal? He was not fighting nor did he resist the bouncers?
Please help - its distressing and upsetting me a lot.
thanks you
cheryl.
I understand (and so does he) that maybe the doormen thought he was involved and just wanted to resolve the situation - but was this force neccessary? Also with him being totally innocent (and them not chucking the actual offenders out) is there anything we can do other than complain to the club?
Surely there must be some legality as to how much force you use - a choke hold and dragging backwards before being thrown backwards onto a pavement can not be legal? He was not fighting nor did he resist the bouncers?
Please help - its distressing and upsetting me a lot.
thanks you
cheryl.
Answers
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Both the above.
I think doormen these days have to be properly trained and qualified under BSIA rules - http://www.bsia.co.uk/ My other half recently did their doorkeeping course, and their rules are quite stringent. You could try complaining to them.
Sadly my advice to your brother is to stay out of things when fights kick off, especially if they don't directly involve him. I know that's probably against his nature and it's terrible to have to say such things. But this could have been much worse.
I think doormen these days have to be properly trained and qualified under BSIA rules - http://www.bsia.co.uk/ My other half recently did their doorkeeping course, and their rules are quite stringent. You could try complaining to them.
Sadly my advice to your brother is to stay out of things when fights kick off, especially if they don't directly involve him. I know that's probably against his nature and it's terrible to have to say such things. But this could have been much worse.
Most clubs have CCTV on the door, or in close vicinity as the Police are well aware things can often get a bit messy outside, complain to the police and they will have to investigate.
Might be the CCTV footage has "accidentally" gone missing, but I think there is some kind of law that means it must be kept for a certain period of time before being destroyed.
Good luck with it. x
Might be the CCTV footage has "accidentally" gone missing, but I think there is some kind of law that means it must be kept for a certain period of time before being destroyed.
Good luck with it. x
The legality of how much force can be used is pretty straight forward. In a nutshell, the force has to be reasonable in the circumstances.
It is up to the individual concerned to prove he was acting reasonably.
Reasonable, is a term used widely. For example both bouncers and the police do not have any special powers regarding the use of force (powers to search etc are different) but the actual use of applied force is the same for the Chief Constable of the Met as it is for Mrs Miggins. And one must remember, the Police kill people!!!!!
In my humble legal opinion, a choke hold and a drag would be reasonable in these circumstances. You brother hitting his head is not reasonable, but sounds like an accident. Although the result will constitute an assault (the apprehension of unlawful personal violence) if the case goes any further, a criminal "mens rea" or "guilty knowledge" of an assault will have to be proved. Yes, there is a crime as reckless assault, in this case the bouncers should have had the foresight in realising that if somebody is thrown to the ground it may cause more injury than is necessary. That is a case for the crown to prove, not a case for the defence to justify, therefore making it harder.
One does not have to fight to be seen as a threat. The situation as a whole, body language, the amount of possible aggressors near by, proximity to weapons (ie glass bottles etc) are all what are known as impact factors in deciding whether reasonable force was used.
It is solely on the say of the bouncer testimony. "I felt threatened, there were four fully grown men fighting, there were bottles nearby, I felt for my safety and those of other colleagues and the public etc etc etc".
Ask yourself this. Can such testimony be proved wrong beyond all reasonable doubt??? If not he won't have a gnats chance in hell in winning any case.
It is up to the individual concerned to prove he was acting reasonably.
Reasonable, is a term used widely. For example both bouncers and the police do not have any special powers regarding the use of force (powers to search etc are different) but the actual use of applied force is the same for the Chief Constable of the Met as it is for Mrs Miggins. And one must remember, the Police kill people!!!!!
In my humble legal opinion, a choke hold and a drag would be reasonable in these circumstances. You brother hitting his head is not reasonable, but sounds like an accident. Although the result will constitute an assault (the apprehension of unlawful personal violence) if the case goes any further, a criminal "mens rea" or "guilty knowledge" of an assault will have to be proved. Yes, there is a crime as reckless assault, in this case the bouncers should have had the foresight in realising that if somebody is thrown to the ground it may cause more injury than is necessary. That is a case for the crown to prove, not a case for the defence to justify, therefore making it harder.
One does not have to fight to be seen as a threat. The situation as a whole, body language, the amount of possible aggressors near by, proximity to weapons (ie glass bottles etc) are all what are known as impact factors in deciding whether reasonable force was used.
It is solely on the say of the bouncer testimony. "I felt threatened, there were four fully grown men fighting, there were bottles nearby, I felt for my safety and those of other colleagues and the public etc etc etc".
Ask yourself this. Can such testimony be proved wrong beyond all reasonable doubt??? If not he won't have a gnats chance in hell in winning any case.
In addition to the above advice, the doorman should hold a licence issued by the Security Industry Authority. The licence is in the form of a badge which should be worn so that the person's name and photograph are displayed. If this was not the case, the SIA (not the BSIA mentioned above) should investigate and take action. In any case they may welcome the feedback on their training. Their address is
Security Industry Authority, P.O. Box 9, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE82 6YX. Help line: 08702 430 100; fax: 08702 430 125; e-mail [email protected]
Website www.the-sia.org.uk
Security Industry Authority, P.O. Box 9, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE82 6YX. Help line: 08702 430 100; fax: 08702 430 125; e-mail [email protected]
Website www.the-sia.org.uk
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