Before the creation of the universe?

[XL]

wonder if anyone can help - i'm looking for varying beliefs and theories from advocates of inteligent design, as to what the 'inteligent designer' was up to before creating the universe.

my research so far shows that theists believe things to be created (something cannot come from nothing, etc) but the paradox this creates, ie: 'Who created the creator?', is more often than not answered with 'the creator (or god) has always been'.

On this basis, and judging by the volume of this common response, is there any established theory or belief, religious or otherwise, as to what the creator was up to before getting to work with the universe? Honing skills? Existing in another plane?

Please take this enquiry in the right spirit - its meant as a genuine enquiry as to what supports the beliefs surrounding a creator that has always been. thanks.

[XL]

sorry - before 'big bang' i should have said

[XL]

the � symbol on my keyboard doesn't get used much!

[Theland]

The � gets my vote. You should copyright it immediately.

[jake-the-peg]

You really are having trouble with this aren't you?

Not surprising though - relativity and time dilation are tough concepts.

For example as you go faster and faster time slows down relative to someone who does not. If you could reach the speed of light time for you would stop.

The same thing happens in massive gravitational fields and as you get closer and closer to the moment of the big bang.

You can't have a before if there is no time

You can't assign a symbol to something that has no meaning

[XL]

Jake The Peg - your answer is scientific and legitimate (thank you) but not relevant to my question.

I asked if theists had beliefs or theories on the intelligent designer before he/she/whatever created the universe.

I wasn't being as bold to assume that all theists believe time was created along with the universe.

[jake-the-peg]

I understand - it's just that theists take a while to catch up with the state of knowledge.

A bit like discussing the colour of the shells of the turtles that support the flat earth.

I'll butt out now.

But I found the source of the quote "He was busy creating hell for overly curious people like you" - it seems equally attributed to Calvin Luther and Augustine

[XL]

the colour of the shells example is frankly the sort of thing I was looking for

but interesting that (here at least) we don't seem to have a contempory equivilent.

Thank you for sourcing the quote - has got me wondering now who DID create the heaven and hell of the abrahamic faiths. Can we assume that was god also? if so, when were they made? Are their creations mentioned in Genesis?

[Theland]

We cannot have a symbol for pre-time? Fair enough. It would have no meaning? Fair enough again. Yet, from this unknowable condition, or lack thereof, came everything, without as yet any explanation from science.
My conjecture is that not only is it unknown, but will always remain so, it is unknowable.
That is where tha choice of faiths comes in that I referred to earlier. Faith in a Creator God, or faith in the ultimate triumph of science.

[XL]

Being unknowable shouldn't stop theories on it though? All theist dogma and doctrines are based on theory. Thats surely why they're called 'faiths' ?

[Theland]

When we are talking about � we are into theory that cannot be tested, so science can only speculate and presume there was a natural explanation - quite simply, a faith.
I have a faith also, based on divine revelation. I could be accused of having an untestable belief, but that is no different to the science based faith in a description of �
That symbol sure is handy.

[naomi24]

Theland, you say 'My belief is that the pursuit of knowledge is not only instictive, but dutiful.

I don't understand that, because you don't pursue knowledge. You've reached a conclusion.

[Theland]

Jewish scholars believe, I understand, in four levels of meaning in the Torah. That is why they have studied it for thousands of years, written commentaries on it, and continue to study it today.
They pursue knowledge, as a duty, and yet have long ago concluded that there is a God whom they serve.
So, the pursuit of knowledge and holding a conclusive viewpoint are not mutually exclusive, in the example I have given.

[naomi24]

Theland, I've no idea why you cite Jewish scholars, but what you've said doesn't make sense to me. If you've reached a conclusion, then surely you feel there is nothing else to learn?

[Theland]

No, I am not that arrogant as to say there is nothing else to learn. I'll only ever scratch the surface of the whole subject of God.

[naomi24]

Theland, if you feel you've only scratched the surface where the subject of God is concerned, don't you feel compelled to dig deeper, rather than accept as the final answer, the limited conclusion you've reached?

[Theland]

God, to me, is the ultimate universal constant.

[naomi24]

So, you have reached your final conclusion and have no wish to investigate further?

Must dash - see you later. Incidentally, it's so good to have you back in sparring form. Custard pies at ten paces!

[Theland]

Thank you.

[Ethmer]

�
"Has God been around forever? And please don't use the 'God invented time' or 'God is not confined to the laws of time' excuses. Because I see a few problems with either answer."


eternal
adj.

Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time.


The problems aren't with either answer but with foundations upon which the questions are based.

Forever doesn't exist. It is man's concept because man perceives of time as a "forever" existent.

God exists outside of the universe. God caused the creation of the universe with the instant of the big bang. From that moment time came into being.

Time is finite in going backward but may be infinite in going forward.

Man can't perceive of the reality in which God IS. By attempting to confine God to our understanding of reality we create the basis for false assumptions.


We are each entitled to our own belief systems. You are entitled to yours and i respect that. In my belief system i don't accept Jesus and conventional Christian doctrine.

i believe that we are all part of the fabric of God and that we will all eventually gravitate back into the Oneness of God regardless of the errors that may have occurred along our paths back to that Oneness.

We are because God Is. God Is that we are. We all eventually return to God though by varied paths.


From my chosen path i stray,
Yet my God ne'er turns away;
For i have learned -- and understand,
That where God is -- is where i am!

�