listener 3975: The cause of much pain by samuel

[midazolam]

in case anyone wants to comment on a rather elegant crossword instead of bickering here is a new thread

[andrewvc12]

Thanks, Rapparee. I understand it now. Roll on tomorrow.
Andrew

[Gazco]

I am absolutely my own worst enemy when it comes to these puzzles. On my way to work this morning, I realised I'd forgotten to highlight the name in last week's puzzle when I transcribed my copy for sending, and now I've wasted most of this week by failing to read the preamble properly and misinterpereting/ignoring the word 'principle', all the while having the word I needed to highlight written out in front of me.
All that aside, a fantastic puzzle, and ultimately an amusing poke in the eye for those who were critical of the setter, as I guarantee that this one will get him some serious plaudits amongst the 'Listnerites' in 2 weeks' time. And rightly so.

[Cruncher]

Did anyone share my feeling that there was room for ambiguity in the arrangement of letters in the third column in the final grid. I've posted my entry now so I will have to wait and see what the setter's intention was but I can see two different ways to order the upper seven letters of that column depending on whether the descending object displaces letters one by one on its way down or simply displaces the letters of the cells that it occupies when it reaches its final resting-place.

[Scorpius]

Cruncher, I don't really see how the preamble supports your first interpretation; I'm sure your second one is what was intended. If your first interpretation had been the intended one I feel the preamble would have been worded differently, and that would have introduced an added complexity that could well confuse solvers over the movements to be made elsewhere.

[Cruncher]

Hi Scorpius. I suspect the second answer is indeed the correct one, though sadly not the one I submitted. However it's not an issue with the other shifts where the words to be shifted contain more letters than the cells below them, so either interpretation gives the same answer. Wait and see

[Mysterons]

Yes, the preamble is quite specific that it is only the letters displaced that move to fill the gaps created, so the 'D' in the third column must stay put. Indeed, if your first interpretation were to be correct, then the other 4 columns would be affected, and the 'principle' would not appear at all (specifically in columns 6 and 7)

[Razor Boy]

It's only specific that displaced letters have to be moved into the gaps, not HOW the displacement happens, i.e which letters are displaced. Both methods give the same answers in all other columns and don't affect the "principle". I'm still not sure the first method's not right because of the bit about them "always keeping their original order". Could that indicate the whole word, as in columns 6 & 11, only the sixth movement being an exception? Why else put that in the preamble? What's the alternative?!!

[cruciverbali]

Mysterons is probably correct - the only way that the 'D' in the third column could be considered to be a displaced letter would be if thematic words 'pushed' the letters below them down, rejoining again at the top of the column as they are pushed off the bottom. However, as has been correctly pointed out, this would mean that in columns 6 and 7 the letters in row 8 would be AA, so the 'principle' would not appear. In addition, the 'N' at the foot of column 8 would also be pushed round, so there would be nothing to stop the sixth movement reaching the same level. To allow this interpretation for column 3 alone would be inconsistent, therefore the 'D' in that column should not be displaced.

PS The alternative to always keeping their original order could be jumbled up / entered alphabetically / in reverse order, for example.

[Razor Boy]

Cruciverbali, your tone is verging on the smug, but you're wrong. There's an alternative to the "moving reel" approach. If letters are move up ONE AT A TIME to fill the SINGLE cells left by the moving object as it "displaces" them, the order is the same as if they're moved as a group when the object reaches its destination. That would put the D at the top.

And do you really think I wasn't aware that letters could be jumbled etc? I was considering whether the instruction was there to iron out this ambiguity that affects column 3 alone, as if they were to appear in any ALTERNATIVE UNSTATED order this would give non-unique solutions, given that there's no way of creating real words from them and no other significant words appear. If they had to be jumbled or alphabetical there'd be some indication, but it didn't seem necessary if they were to remain in order, although it could just be to rule out the "moving reel" approach. It was an idea worth considering, but obviously from your oracular pronouncements you don't need anyone else's thoughts on the matter.

[Philoctetes]

I have one question left - what is the relevance of the title?

[Mysterons]

The title presumably refers to the sixth movement.

Regarding the dilemma in column 3, I agree that there is a possibility for ambiguity here, but do feel that if letters moved up one at a time as the theme word fell, then this method of displacement would have been more explicit in the preamble. The fact that the displaced letters always keep their original order doesn't seem in itself to exclude any of the 3 possible interpretations.

[cruciverbali]

I'm sure you're correct Mysterons - the instruction to keep displaced letters in the same order is there to ensure the correct letters appear in columns 6 and 7 of the 'principle'.

[Cruncher]

I'm glad some other solvers noticed my dilemma. In a saddo moment I sent a robust exigesis of the alternative reading to 63 Green Lane. I reckon my posted solution (with the D at the top) has probably blown my 2009 dinner invitation - but then after some of poisonous exchanges on this website, I can't help feeling that a night holed up in a hotel full of Listener solvers might not be somewhat akin to a night on the Orient Express