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Oh dear, turned a bit nasty didn't it
I guess we are always going to see the extremities of those poles of opinion cropping up from time to time, and once in a while things are bound to erupt.
I can sympathise with both camps ... regardless of what is occasionally posted here, I do think that the Listener merits special-case status, and for that reason I think we do well to observe a certain degree of restraint (most of the time) in our responses to requests for help. I'd encourage coaching / gentle nudges in the right direction ... and I don't honestly think things have shifted too far beyond that on this thread.
There again, I think that certain posters - particularly the two staunch Listener advocates here - tend towards paranoid extremism. Just what is so wrong with a few mates exchanging encouragement and hints over what is after all a great weekend / whole week's pastime?
We are all free to draw lines in the sand where we think they should be ... if you can afford to spend ten hours struggling to crack a Listener, then so-be-it and you have every right to feel damned pleased with yourself on finishing unaided. But please don't slag off those who do their best to get close to the finish, then need a wee leg up to close out. If they are happy to resort to a nudge, then who are you to criticise? Individual conscience should dictate what each of us feels acceptable, not some arbitrary rule imposed by the sanctimonious.
Listenerite and Angrysolver - I will not try to warn you off, but please accept that some people here do enjoy the companionship and support of other solvers, and if that involves being happy to accept an odd hint then what's the big deal? I don't think too many are in this for a free meal ticket! If I ever manage the 100% record one year, then I can assure you I too will not be joining you splendid folks at the dinner.
.. to be continued
I guess we are always going to see the extremities of those poles of opinion cropping up from time to time, and once in a while things are bound to erupt.
I can sympathise with both camps ... regardless of what is occasionally posted here, I do think that the Listener merits special-case status, and for that reason I think we do well to observe a certain degree of restraint (most of the time) in our responses to requests for help. I'd encourage coaching / gentle nudges in the right direction ... and I don't honestly think things have shifted too far beyond that on this thread.
There again, I think that certain posters - particularly the two staunch Listener advocates here - tend towards paranoid extremism. Just what is so wrong with a few mates exchanging encouragement and hints over what is after all a great weekend / whole week's pastime?
We are all free to draw lines in the sand where we think they should be ... if you can afford to spend ten hours struggling to crack a Listener, then so-be-it and you have every right to feel damned pleased with yourself on finishing unaided. But please don't slag off those who do their best to get close to the finish, then need a wee leg up to close out. If they are happy to resort to a nudge, then who are you to criticise? Individual conscience should dictate what each of us feels acceptable, not some arbitrary rule imposed by the sanctimonious.
Listenerite and Angrysolver - I will not try to warn you off, but please accept that some people here do enjoy the companionship and support of other solvers, and if that involves being happy to accept an odd hint then what's the big deal? I don't think too many are in this for a free meal ticket! If I ever manage the 100% record one year, then I can assure you I too will not be joining you splendid folks at the dinner.
.. to be continued
.. continued
Parting congratulations at your unaided solving achievements, but I will continue to check in here from time to time .. particularly as I don't have all the resources that some 'clean' Listener solvers do. (I see that even the current Silver Salver holder is not averse to using the multi-way searchable Chambers CD ROM when up against it!)
I know that I too have been drawn into defending the Listener stats and all that in the past, but I have always said, and still do, that there's a case to be made for offering help.
A & L, I do welcome your comments on here, and defend in this democracy your right to post them - but I can see that they are going to provoke hostile reaction and are quite possibly designed to. Can't you too see that there is another way?
Parting congratulations at your unaided solving achievements, but I will continue to check in here from time to time .. particularly as I don't have all the resources that some 'clean' Listener solvers do. (I see that even the current Silver Salver holder is not averse to using the multi-way searchable Chambers CD ROM when up against it!)
I know that I too have been drawn into defending the Listener stats and all that in the past, but I have always said, and still do, that there's a case to be made for offering help.
A & L, I do welcome your comments on here, and defend in this democracy your right to post them - but I can see that they are going to provoke hostile reaction and are quite possibly designed to. Can't you too see that there is another way?
-- answer removed --
I think Cruncher and cluelessjoe have calmly and considerately rebutted A and Ls arguments. I would just add that I can see why a Casino owner in Las Vegas would want to limit the number of winners, but fail to understand why it gets A and L in such a stew.
Posting such requests, however politely in this forum is like asking fish not to swim - it's what we do.
Back in the mid-nineties on the Crossword Centre message board, their revered guru posted that the Silver Salver winner of that year had failed to acknowledge, in his acceptance speech, the help he had given to him.
Posting such requests, however politely in this forum is like asking fish not to swim - it's what we do.
Back in the mid-nineties on the Crossword Centre message board, their revered guru posted that the Silver Salver winner of that year had failed to acknowledge, in his acceptance speech, the help he had given to him.
You guys crack me up! You seem to be saying, in a roundabout way, that those of us who solve the Listener without resorting to cheating are very boring, and you wouldn't want to sit in a pub (or at a dinner) with us, and that those of you who do resort to cheating to solve the Listener are all good eggs and would be fantastic company on a night out! I've heard many sweeping generalisations before, but that's a good one.
It seems to sum up the malaise in today's society, really: "What? What's that? You got where you are by means of hard work and perseverance, by never giving in and by never resorting to underhand methods? You boring so and so! I cheated and copied off somebody else - I'm interesting and dangerous! Yeah! Let's all hang out in our interesting and dangerous group, and we'll mock all the squares! Yeah! You can't play with us, you're teacher's pet! Yeah!"
Good grief, it's like being in the playground at school again!And whilst I would never claim that the Listener Dinner was an orgiastic frenzy of loose women, drug taking and heathen worship, I suspect it's pretty typical of when 100 or so largely male, largely middle-aged, largely upper middle-class people get together - staying up way too late, and lots of sore heads the following morning. Maybe you should invite us Listenerites along to your Answerbank New Year's drink, so you can *really* show us how to party!
It seems to sum up the malaise in today's society, really: "What? What's that? You got where you are by means of hard work and perseverance, by never giving in and by never resorting to underhand methods? You boring so and so! I cheated and copied off somebody else - I'm interesting and dangerous! Yeah! Let's all hang out in our interesting and dangerous group, and we'll mock all the squares! Yeah! You can't play with us, you're teacher's pet! Yeah!"
Good grief, it's like being in the playground at school again!And whilst I would never claim that the Listener Dinner was an orgiastic frenzy of loose women, drug taking and heathen worship, I suspect it's pretty typical of when 100 or so largely male, largely middle-aged, largely upper middle-class people get together - staying up way too late, and lots of sore heads the following morning. Maybe you should invite us Listenerites along to your Answerbank New Year's drink, so you can *really* show us how to party!
I don't want to get too involved with the all the spiteful banter that's been going on here, suffice it to say that an earlier comment by Cruncher intimating that the perimeter of the grid should be regarded in a certain way was the 'little' push that I personally needed. If it means anything that was all I then concentrated on and subsequently I finished it. I then looked at all the other hints after my envelope had been sealed. Having slogged your way through a tough set of clues to then come to a complete stop for DAYS, is pretty much like driving to a holiday villa only to discover that the doors are locked and the keys are nowhere to be found. Personally I'm not going to get back in my car and turn around for home when someone not too far away is beckoning me over and offering me a clue as to how to get myself inside. I enjoyed the drive too much to give up and my spirits were high solving 99% of the puzzle. I enjoy these crosswords immensely and although I've been aware of this site for a long time this is the first occasion I've needed it. I'm here to throw myself beneath the genius of the setters, who, I'm sure, create their puzzles more for our enjoyment than anything else. Yes it's good to finish one under your own steam but when I finished it this one earlier today, one week after starting it, the feeling of achievement was still enormous. I still feel pretty smug finishing something only a relatively small proportion of the population attempt, but in walking away from the postbox I'm still going to look back towards my imagined location of Mr Cruncher and give him a thankful wink.
Thanks Walterloo. Your posting gave me at least as much pleasure as managing to crack the beastie myself. I can't see that the Listenerites of this world and the rest of us will ever find common ground but I would opine that the notion that we learn best in splendid isolation, and that any kind of mutual collaboration is a symptom of intellectual and moral weakness does seem a little old-fashioned. I was being serious about the New Year drink but equally serious about the entry criteria
Actually, as a reasonably intelligent person, I am still floundering with this, despite all the hints, tips, and veiled solutions on here. I have no idea what the "theme" is, if any. I have no way of checking that my shape is right, unless I assume that it is unique to the criteria. I am not even sure that two of my answers are correct, because the clueing is so tortuous. I need a light-bulb moment!
I am a French citizen ... linguist by cursus ... and "cruciverbiste" by interest. I discovered the Listener crossword 15 years ago and, at that time, could hardly fill one word in the grid. Since then, through graft and pain, I have managed to improve this and produce at least 20 odd correct answers a year! ... Once or twice, I have been so near (but yet so far) to the final grid entry that it hurt. Your chat links have helped me at least twice to find the final grid! Thank you! I would like to say that all these comments from bitter little men (or women?) about stats, top of the league, and all that jazz ... are rubbish! Should you be such a fraud and only manage to do the Listener grids thanks to hints, anagram solvers and the like, would it not be rather painful to then discuss crossword clues with your peers? You would not have a clue (pardon the pun), would you? I like your chats! They don't always help me. They are well controlled not to give too much away. And I did not get 4003 despite all the supposed help! Please go on!
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